Dem Townhall/Iowa Caucuses

[Angelsjunky]

Nate, I know some people who make $30-50K a year and work insanely hard, yet struggle to get by. Many of them are intelligent, have chosen their careers because that is what they want to do, and in many cases could have made more money doing work that they found less meaningful, or that they felt didn't make a difference in the world.

 

Part of the reason some people are rich, is because others are poor -- not usually on a case-by-case basis, but systemically. For example, the wealth of pharmaceutical and insurance CEOS, as well as surgeons and hospital administrators, leading to the huge cost of health care and high insurance premiums.

 

I agree with you that a lot of very poor folks take advantage of the system. To me this is a cultural and educational problem. We need both short-term and long-term solutions. But sometimes the short-term solutions can help the long-term, sometimes not. But I think improving education, increasing opportunity and reducing poverty help both.

 

By the way, on an amusing note, the other day I saw a homeless dude with a smartphone.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Angelsjunky

[Adam]

I like the direction this is going.

[Angelsjunky]

If he's will to run his campaign under the jackass banner, he's already cast his lot. 

 

I disagree. He's just willing to do what you're evidently not: work within the system that exists, not rail against it (but change nothing).

 

Bernie is all about sound bytes.  People keep trying to cast him as an outsider but he isn't.  His comment about student loans and mortgages is proof of that.

 

Again, I disagree.

 

As a practicing evangelical, AJ does not believe in Darwinism. 

 

LOL. You realize that there are other worldviews besides evangelicalism and social Darwinism. Or maybe you don't.

[nate]

AJ, your solutions all seem to be throwing more money at them.  I say we already spend more than enough money and the solution in many cases should be to spend more.

 

I was single and making 30k a year and managed to have an apartment, a car, health insurance, etc.  I even managed to support my $250 a month pot hobby.  If that is their choice then so be it, it is the life they choose.  I decided I would rather make six figures.

 

We pay as much in taxes as Canadians and they have free health care, think about that for a minute.  And it isn't because of military spending, they spend nearly as much as we do percentage wise.

[nate]

As a practicing evangelical, AJ does not believe in Darwinism. 

 

same

[Angelsjunky]

I like the direction this is going.

 

What, Angelsjunky vs. the Libertarians?

 

Actually, its been pretty civil thus far.

[Angelsjunky]

AJ, your solutions all seem to be throwing more money at them.  I say we already spend more than enough money and the solution in many cases should be to spend more.

 

I was single and making 30k a year and managed to have an apartment, a car, health insurance, etc.  I even managed to support my $250 a month pot hobby.  If that is their choice then so be it, it is the life they choose.  I decided I would rather make six figures.

 

We pay as much in taxes as Canadians and they have free health care, think about that for a minute.  And it isn't because of military spending, they spend nearly as much as we do percentage wise.

 

Part of the problem is how we (the US) uses our money. I think you and I can both agree that we spend way too much on the military. I'd also throw in tax breaks for corporations.

 

I don't get your point about Canadians. Shouldn't we be trying to emulate them? How are they spending no more on taxes but have free health care? I think that's what Bernie is saying, and wants to do: save people money through better allocation of resources. The short-term fix is increasing taxes on the very wealthy. It isn't a great or ideal fix, but might be necessary in the short-term, and is better than the status quo.

[Spirit]

Bern has been an Independent for awhile now.  He was will to sellout and run as a jackass when it met his selfish needs. 

[nate]

Sorry I didn't mean spend more I meant spend less.

 

Canadians have free healthcare but they do not have near the same amount of other social welfare programs.  Bernie wants to keep or enhance all of the welfare programs while also adding more.  It isn't sustainable.

 

By the way my Canadian friends hate their healthcare system and would absolutely be willing to pay to have a better system.

Edited January 28, 2016 by nate

[Adam]

I don't think Nate and Geoff are Libertarians. I'm not registered as such either. I think we all just hate government, cronyism and inefficiency.

[Spirit]

I've been a registered independent since 1996.  There's no one party that encompasses everything that I believe.  I just know the 2 party system we have is rigged and anyone who continues to vote for a candidate in one of those parties is only exacerbating the problem. 

 

 

So wake up, sheeple!!!!!

[Angelsjunky]

Bern has been an Independent for awhile now.  He was will to sellout and run as a jackass when it met his selfish needs. 

 

What are his selfish needs? Do you think he's running for president out of selfishness? Certainly personal ambition is probably part of it, but in his case I think it is a small part. I think he's running for president because he believes strongly in issues of equality and such, and deeply cares about people.

 

Sorry I didn't mean spend more I meant spend less.

 

Canadians have free healthcare but they do not have near the same amount of other social welfare programs.  Bernie wants to keep or enhance all of the welfare programs while also adding more.  It isn't sustainable.

 

By the way my Canadian friends hate their healthcare system and would absolutely be willing to pay to have a better system.

 

Are your Canadian friends, by any chance, well off? I would think that makes a difference.

 

Anyhow, there is no perfect system. I don't know what the answer is. But we've tried the right-wing approach, we've tried the moderate approach. Why not try a truly progressive approach?

 

Again, I don't think Bernie's (or anyone's) solutions are perfect, but I think they're worth a shot and better than the status quo (Hillary, the more moderate Republicans), and certainly better than the regressive policies of the Republicans.

 

I don't think Nate and Geoff are Libertarians. I'm not registered as such either. I think we all just hate government, cronyism and inefficiency.

 

Well in that we can all agree. What we disagree about is what to do about it.

 

By the way, I don't consider myself a Democrat and am not registered as such, although may do so to participate in the NH caucus.

[Angelsjunky]

I've been a registered independent since 1996.  There's no one party that encompasses everything that I believe.  I just know the 2 party system we have is rigged and anyone who continues to vote for a candidate in one of those parties is only exacerbating the problem. 

 

 

So wake up, sheeple!!!!!

 

So what's your solution?

 

By the way, I'm in a similar situation - that there's no one party that encompasses everything I believe. But Bernie is a lot closer than anyone else out there that is running and I hope I get the chance to vote for him.

[Spirit]

So what's your solution?

 

By the way, I'm in a similar situation - that there's no one party that encompasses everything I believe. But Bernie is a lot closer than anyone else out there that is running and I hope I get the chance to vote for him.

 

You need to inject a 3rd (or 4th, or 5th ...) party into the mix to hold the existing two parties accountable.  

 

What are your issues with Gary Johnson?  Why does Bernie's "plans" (if you want to call them that), fit better for you than Gary's?

[arch stanton]

I don't think new parties is a good solution. Just a matter of time before it goes right back to where it is. I don't think it's solvable unless we push the national parties out of state and local politics and push things back down to lower levels. Sure there's some downside to state's rights but it's better than what we have now.

[nate]

What are his selfish needs? Do you think he's running for president out of selfishness? Certainly personal ambition is probably part of it, but in his case I think it is a small part. I think he's running for president because he believes strongly in issues of equality and such, and deeply cares about people.

 

 

Are your Canadian friends, by any chance, well off? I would think that makes a difference.

 

Anyhow, there is no perfect system. I don't know what the answer is. But we've tried the right-wing approach, we've tried the moderate approach. Why not try a truly progressive approach?

 

Again, I don't think Bernie's (or anyone's) solutions are perfect, but I think they're worth a shot and better than the status quo (Hillary, the more moderate Republicans), and certainly better than the regressive policies of the Republicans.

 

 

Well in that we can all agree. What we disagree about is what to do about it.

 

By the way, I don't consider myself a Democrat and am not registered as such, although may do so to participate in the NH caucus.

 

My Canadian friends all make a decent middle class wage.  I do not know exactly how much but I would guess in the 40-75k range.

[Angelsjunky]

You need to inject a 3rd (or 4th, or 5th ...) party into the mix to hold the existing two parties accountable.  

 

What are your issues with Gary Johnson?  Why does Bernie's "plans" (if you want to call them that), fit better for you than Gary's?

 

I don't have any issues with Gary Johnson - I like him, especially on foreign policy and social issues, actually prefer a voucher system, etc. But like most libertarians, I agree with most of what he says, but disagree strongly on a chunk of things - mainly about the environment (which libertarians seem woefully naive about). I do think there's a place for big government, especially with regards to things like environmental regulations, social programs, etc. I'm pretty sure he hates single-payer healthcare, which I support.

 

I don't think new parties is a good solution. Just a matter of time before it goes right back to where it is. I don't think it's solvable unless we push the national parties out of state and local politics and push things back down to lower levels. Sure there's some downside to state's rights but it's better than what we have now.

 

Good point. I've also liked the idea of going back to the original idea of united-but-distinct states, or one idea about splitting up the nation into seven or eight smaller nations. Sort of an American Union, although learning from the mistakes of the EU. There was a hypothetical map that did this, not sure where it is.

[Spirit]

I don't think new parties is a good solution. Just a matter of time before it goes right back to where it is. I don't think it's solvable unless we push the national parties out of state and local politics and push things back down to lower levels. Sure there's some downside to state's rights but it's better than what we have now.

 

 

People who want to outlaw abortion, gay marriage and/or the right to own a gun would love this idea. 

[arch stanton]

People who want to outlaw abortion, gay marriage and/or the right to own a gun would love this idea. 

The Constitution stands. Still can't have my gun.

[nate]

Of course there are things about every candidate I like and dislike.

 

I hate guns (bernie)

I think our military needs to be significantly scaled back and that we need to gtfo the middle east and let it rot (kinda bernie?)

I think middle class taxes need to be cut a fair amount and definitely don't need to be increased (not sure any candidates fit here honestly)

I think that social programs need to be scaled back (some of the right)

I am pro gay marriage (left and some of the right)

I am for campaign finance reform eliminating lobbying and corporate donations above the individual amount (none of the candidates)

I am against a single payer system (the right)

I am for strong public education (some of the left and right)

I do not have any problems with college tuitions (all but bernie)

 

I am sure there is more that but hits the main points for me.  The taxes issue is obviously one that I feel very strongly about.

[Angelsjunky]

People who want to outlaw abortion, gay marriage and/or the right to own a gun would love this idea. 

 

Well, there's something to the idea that different regions, cultures and states should be able to govern themselves. If Mississippi wants to return to the 19th century, maybe they should be allowed to. That said, they shouldn't have the rights and support of the larger union.

[Spirit]

The Constitution stands. Still can't have my gun.

 

Well, there you go.  

 

Suck it, Dems!

[Spirit]

Well, there's something to the idea that different regions, cultures and states should be able to govern themselves. If Mississippi wants to return to the 19th century, maybe they should be allowed to. That said, they shouldn't have the rights and support of the larger union.

 

 

If the plan is to allow states to make their own choices, then they should get the exact same support as any other state.  

 

But I agree with your overall point.  The entire thing is a ridiculous idea. 

[nate]

I forgot, I am also for completely shutting down immigration for a period of 5-10 years and then reevaluating our population growth before opening the borders again.

 

I am also for rounding up all illegal immigrants and dumping them back in their country of origin.

 

Don't think any of the candidates share that view either.

Edited January 28, 2016 by nate

[Angelsjunky]

If the plan is to allow states to make their own choices, then they should get the exact same support as any other state.  

 

But I agree with your overall point.  The entire thing is a ridiculous idea. 

 

Well my point was that if you have a nation with a certain cultural ethos - e.g. universal human rights, individual freedoms, etc - then all states within that nation should be held to a certain standard. On the other hand, if you have a state that doesn't agree with those standards, that state state should have the right cede from the nation.

 

Our country has many different sub-cultures, different worlds, if you will. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, and is part of the cultural richness of the US, but it does pose some challenges.