Cespedes signs with the Mets

[Inside Pitch]

Besides Grichuk, who did Dipoto trade that is worth a damn?    And we'll see how long that lasts. 

 

Name all the position players he drafted worth getting excited over?   BTW -- go look up Michael Clevinger..   Pissed him away for Pestano.  

[Docwaukee]

Beyond Moreno, which brain trust?  The one that painted us into the corner and pissed away four years of minor league development time or the one that inherited this mess?

the directive for the last three general managers has been the same.  Take care of the major league club first.  It's hard to preserve your farm system when the guy with the money doesn't really care about it.  

 

Imagine the dynamic when the off season and deadline roll around.  

[Inside Pitch]

Mostly meant Moreno. We'll never know how much he spear-headed the Pujols and Hamilton deals, though we can venture a guess that it was pretty substantial. Eppler is only a few months into the job, we have no idea if he's going to end up being any good as a GM. For the sake of this franchise, they better hope he is. The Trout window is already 4 years in and they've accomplished 0 postseason wins to show for it. They have 5 years remaining on it and 2016 already looks pretty murky. 2017 is hard to predict since it's another full year away but the same glaring needs this team has this year will still be there heading into 2017. The FA market next offseason is pretty much a barren wasteland so the educated guess there is that they won't be finding much help in FA for another year

 

Doc has been saying this in posts -- we will know what the hell Arte has learned and what he hasn't based on what happens in the farm system.  We need Moreno to infuse a lot more money into the development end of things.    Eppler right now is just stuck holding the bag.

[Chuck]

Dipoto let Darren O'Day walk.

That bummed me out the most.

If Grichuk turns into a stud OF, that will be as bad if not more.

[Inside Pitch]

the directive for the last three general managers has been the same.  Take care of the major league club first.  It's hard to preserve your farm system when the guy with the money doesn't really care about it.  

 

Imagine the dynamic when the off season and deadline roll around.  

 

Drafting poorly is not about directives.  The Angels have drafted poorly.  They missed the window to spend big on international signings when they could have, but I truly believe a stronger GM would have been able to point out why it was important to make that investment -- not unlike what Stoneman did when the DNF picks were being phased out.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Inside Pitch

[ScottT]

If Arte didn't need to overpay free agents...  and sign a drug addict.... the Angels GM would have had a better shot at drafting good players. 

[bloodbrother]

Don't the Angels have a weak facility in the DR compared to other MLB clubs, or did they finally spend just a handful of money to make moderate upgrades? You have a team that trades prospects away routinely and are non-existent in Latin America/Asia for no good reason at all. Just baffling the direction they're going

[Docwaukee]

Name all the position players he drafted worth getting excited over?   BTW -- go look up Michael Clevinger..   Pissed him away for Pestano.  

It's not necessarily about what they are doing now.  Dipoto was forced to make the team better now.  Just as Reagins was.  Just as Eppler is.  

 

Our farm system is a stack of ones and the Angels are hittin' the strip clubs.  You might find a 5 in that stack once in awhile, but who cares.  You're already at the strip club.  It's not like your'e gonna put that 5 back in your pocket.  

 

The org philosophy will only change when it is absolutely forced to.  When Richards and Calhoun are gone.  When Trout is gone.  When Pujols can no longer stand.  

[Inside Pitch]

If Arte didn't need to overpay free agents...  and sign a drug addict.... the Angels GM would have had a better shot at drafting good players. 

 

Plenty of quality players were taken after our picks -- but I understand that Jerry walked on water and that everything that went right was because of him and everything that went wrong was someone else's fault.   Fanboy on.

 

[ScottT]

Exactly.

[Docwaukee]

Drafting poorly is not about directives.  The Angels have drafted poorly.  They missed the window to spend big on international signings when they could have, but I truly believe a stronger GM would have been able to point out why it was important to make that investment -- not unlike what Stoneman did when the DNF picks were being phased out.

They actually tried to make that happen and Arte wasn't having it.  We have the lowest player development budget in baseball.  Every last resource goes into the major league club.  Who do you think controls how that money is allocated?  

 

There isn't a GM is baseball that is going to make Arte Moreno do something other than what he wants.  He wants 3 million fans to show up every year.  That's the goal.  3 million fans.  3 million fans.  Say it with me.  Anything that jeopardizes that isn't gonna fly.  

 

I think Arte accepts that people around him know about baseball.  But he knows (or thinks he knows) about how to market a baseball team.  In fact, I could see him telling his GM's to handle baseball and he'll handle the business.  

[NrM]

This is pretty much what it is.  They will be frugal til Hamilton is off the books then reconsider their course.   Let's see how they draft and what they do once they can spend money on international players again.

 

Then their number 1 goal this offseason should've been to restock the farm for 2017 and 2018. Which would've been a pretty easy task if Arte was willing to spend on international players and make smart trades

 

How much better is this team with Simmons? Not much.

Eppler ****ed up big time. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Poozy

[ScottT]

Considering the popular theory that Pujols and Hamilton were all Arte.   Considering how butt hurt Arte seemed about Josh Hamilton.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Eppler thought he could sign a left fielder then was told no.  In fact, it seems likely.... Arte almost said as much... that  they were interested but not at the price... when he was grand marshal of the boat parade.  

 

Who is surprised at salaries in MLB nowadays?  Does Arte remember that tv deal he signed?

[Inside Pitch]

Then their number 1 goal this offseason should've been restocking the farm for 2016 and 2017. Which would've been a pretty easy task to accomplish if Arte was willing to spend on international players, make smart trades

 

How much better is this team going to be with simmons on the roster this year? Not much.

Eppler ****ed up big time. 

 

Arte cant spend on international players this offseason because they were locked out of the big money signings due to Baldoquin...  

 

As far as making smart trades....  the Angels don't have a lot of guys capable of bringing in a lot of minor league talent "to restock the farm system with" and the guys that could possibly aid in doing that weren't going to be moved.   

They weren't going to gut the roster while Trout is here, at least not yet..   Who knows, maybe a truly awful season may push them to do that.   We will see.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Inside Pitch

[Docwaukee]

 

Plenty of quality players were taken after our picks -- but I understand that Jerry walked on water and that everything that went right was because of him and everything that went wrong was someone else's fault.   Fanboy on.

 

there isn't a GM and team of front office personnel capable of drafting well enough to sustain the model that Arte has created.  

 

That said, Dipoto drafts weren't very good.  The question becomes though, was it because of Dipoto or was it because of the org philosophy that was mandated from the top down.  Or was the draft philosophy out of need because of what he was dealt.  Would he have drafted the way he did if the system wasn't such a mess?  Regardless, his method didn't work.  My contention was that JD was pretty solid relative to the circumstances.  We'll see if Eppler can do any better relative to his circumstances which are quite limited.  

 

My point is that I don't think any GM for the halos is going to have an opportunity to build a farm system because it's not an organizational priority right now.  It will only become one out of necessity.  

[Docwaukee]

Then their number 1 goal this offseason should've been to restock the farm for 2017 and 2018. Which would've been a pretty easy task if Arte was willing to spend on international players and make smart trades

 

How much better is this team with Simmons? Not much.

Eppler ****ed up big time. 

It's not Eppler.  He's given his marching orders.  He's not gonna convince Arte to do that.  Granted, a lot of us feel he could have gotten more than he did, but one way or another, Newcomb and Ellis and whoever else may have some value on the open market was gone.  As long as we have an outside chance to win, it will continue to be that way.  

[NrM]

there isn't a GM and team of front office personnel capable of drafting well enough to sustain the model that Arte has created.  

 

That said, Dipoto drafts weren't very good.  The question becomes though, was it because of Dipoto or was it because of the org philosophy that was mandated from the top down.  Or was the draft philosophy out of need because of what he was dealt.  Would he have drafted the way he did if the system wasn't such a mess?  Regardless, his method didn't work.  My contention was that JD was pretty solid relative to the circumstances.  We'll see if Eppler can do any better relative to his circumstances which are quite limited.  

 

My point is that I don't think any GM for the halos is going to have an opportunity to build a farm system because it's not an organizational priority right now.  It will only become one out of necessity.  

 

So if the angels finish 82-82 or worse this year, which is pretty damn likely. What happens?

Cause it doesn't seem like arte is capable of changing his meddling philosophy.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Poozy

[Halos of Anaheim]

Have you seen the '17 FA class? "The right player" is not available.

We're building for '18...expect some big money thrown at Donaldson after we pick up the option on Escobar for '17.

 

Donaldson will be 32 in 2018.

 

Kill me now..

 

Bad timing this season. He was firm that he wasn't going over tax threshold so this isn't a surprise.

Spending like idiot hasn't worked since '09, so they are finally reevaluating how to invest their resources. Smart move, if they've truly learned from it.

 

Keyword spending like ''an idiot''. If we signed Beltre in 2011 (a consistent 6-7 WAR player) we probably would have made the playoffs at least 2 more times. I feel like not signing Upton will be something we regret too.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Halos of Anaheim

[Docwaukee]

So if the angels finish 82-82 this year, what happens?

the same thing.  

 

If some farm players develop value to help the major league club then they are gone or they are getting moved up and someone else is gone.  But only to help the big club.  We won't be trading off anyone for prospects in the off season.  And if by sheer luck we are able to time it up so we can move CJ, Smith, and Escobar at the deadline, the the players in return will either be those that can help the big club the following year or prospects capable of bringing value in trade to bring guys in for the next couple of years.  

 

If we are able to free up enough cash to bring in some FA to help the club in 2017-2020 then that money is as good as spent.   I think we are gonna clear space for Strasburg.  He's a big name and a socal boy.  

 

The thing that will be very telling is how we draft this year.  If we do the college senior thing again, then you know that's coming from up on high.  Closer to the majors so more immediate recognizable value.  Cheaper to scout and sign.  

 

But the point is that it's not about the wins at the end of the season.  It's about the illusion of being able to win the following year.  Getting those 3 million fans.  Is it gonna work forever.  Hell no and that's why I have been so adamant about why that philosophy sucks.  Worrying about 'the guy' that you'd go over the tax for is the perfect example.  That 'guy' was out there this year in most people eyes.  It was whoever it was that would help the team win.  But that 'guy' to Arte is the one that puts butts in the seats.  We want it to be about the team and it's not.  It's about the player.  

[ukyah]

all i'm saying is, they better win a shit ton of games early. after the scioscia blumpkin of last year and this offseason, they're in danger of people forgetting to give a shit. relevance is a fickle mistress.

Edited January 23, 2016 by ukyah

[NrM]

the same thing.  

 

If some farm players develop value to help the major league club then they are gone or they are getting moved up and someone else is gone.  But only to help the big club.  We won't be trading off anyone for prospects in the off season.  And if by sheer luck we are able to time it up so we can move CJ, Smith, and Escobar at the deadline, the the players in return will either be those that can help the big club the following year or prospects capable of bringing value in trade to bring guys in for the next couple of years.  

 

If we are able to free up enough cash to bring in some FA to help the club in 2017-2020 then that money is as good as spent.   I think we are gonna clear space for Strasburg.  He's a big name and a socal boy.  

 

The thing that will be very telling is how we draft this year.  If we do the college senior thing again, then you know that's coming from up on high.  Closer to the majors so more immediate recognizable value.  Cheaper to scout and sign.  

 

But the point is that it's not about the wins at the end of the season.  It's about the illusion of being able to win the following year.  Getting those 3 million fans.  Is it gonna work forever.  Hell no and that's why I have been so adamant about why that philosophy sucks.  Worrying about 'the guy' that you'd go over the tax for is the perfect example.  That 'guy' was out there this year in most people eyes.  It was whoever it was that would help the team win.  But that 'guy' to Arte is the one that puts butts in the seats.  We want it to be about the team and it's not.  It's about the player.  

 

I think the best we can hope for is a complete collapse then. 100 losses. That's the only way Arte will see the light.

[NrM]

Calzone.. you aint the only one to predict the Angels wouldn't sign a big player, you're just the only one throwing it in everyone's face 

 

 

Seems like there are a shitload of teams capable of spending more than the angels. Along with the fact that next years free agent class looks terrible, means a lot more teams will be going all in this year.

I think they go after the majority of the expensive free agents, but come up short.

 

 

just stating my opinion that he wont be willing to spend as much as teams like the yankees, cubs and mets. 

 

http://www.angelswin-forum.com/forums/topic/24222-predict-where-they-sign/page-2

Edited January 23, 2016 by Poozy

[Inside Pitch]

That said, Dipoto drafts weren't very good.  The question becomes though, was it because of Dipoto or was it because of the org philosophy that was mandated from the top down.  Or was the draft philosophy out of need because of what he was dealt.  Would he have drafted the way he did if the system wasn't such a mess?  Regardless, his method didn't work.  My contention was that JD was pretty solid relative to the circumstances.  We'll see if Eppler can do any better relative to his circumstances which are quite limited.  

 

And again... drafting poorly is drafting poorly.   You can argue the mandate was to bring in guys who could fill holes ASAP but that ignores that they failed to do that.  Trading away Clevinger and Grichuk for RPs after making FA mistakes on the likes of Burnett, and blunders like the Walden deal are also fully on him.   I've never had an issue with what the stated plan was, but it's implementation had a lot of misses. 

 

Dipoto inherited a significantly better farm system than the one he passed on to Eppler -- it was under his direction that there was a massive turnover in scouts and management types in the farm system.  There are a lot of specific things I can point out that you can counter and I can follow suit -- but the the people in place in the farm system are all on him.

 

He owns it.

 

Ultimately I don't really give a rat's ass why we are here, I want the same thing you want.  To see a real change in the area that needs it most.  I don't care that we can't sign any of the big name international guys, but I'd love to see the Angels steal away more international scouts from other organizations -- they would be a massive win.  I'd love to hear the team has hired more guys, added crosscheckers -- things of that nature.  

As you have so eloquently stated -- the current model isn't sustainable...  If the only goal is really filling the seats then it's gonna get bleak here in a hurry.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Inside Pitch

[Docwaukee]

And again... drafting poorly is drafting poorly.   You can argue the mandate was to bring in guys who could fill holes ASAP but that ignores that they failed to do that.  Trading away Clevinger and Grichuk for RPs after making FA mistakes on the likes of Burnett, and blunders like the Walden deal are also fully on him.   I've never had an issue with what the stated plan was, but it's implementation had a lot of misses. 

 

Dipoto inherited a significantly better farm system than the one he passed on to Eppler -- it was under his direction that there was a massive turnover in scouts and management types in the farm system.  There are a lot of specific things I can point out that you can counter and I can follow suit -- but the the people in place in the farm system are all on him.

 

He owns it.

 

Ultimately I don't really give a rat's ass why we are here, I want the same thing you want.  To see a real change in the area that needs it most.  I don't care that we can't sign any of the big name international guys, but I'd love to see the Angels steal away more international scouts from other organizations -- they would be a massive win.  I'd love to hear the team has hired more guys, added crosscheckers -- things of that nature.  

As you have so eloquently stated -- the current model isn't sustainable...  If the only goal is really filling the seats then it's gonna get bleak here in a hurry.

I totally and completely agree that Dipoto and his team missed big time with their draft philosophy.  Didn't like it from the get go. It was by far, my biggest complaint about his tenure.  That and if you are gonna do everything you could for the big club, why go to battle with a shit pen for almost three straight years and then trade assets to fix it mid season.  

 

His draft philosophy seemed like it was all about the quick fix.  So what does it tell us if he doesn't take the same approach in seattle?  Still think an element of that philosophy with the halos was rooted in the fact that he had lesser resources to scout and develop so it was just cheaper and easier to draft college guys.  Regardless, it didn't work.  He had control of it, and it failed.  

 

Eppler gets a pass for not having any resources as well, but like Dipoto, he doesn't get a pass for the way he uses what he has.  So far, I don't like the way he's made use of those resources.  Another thing I felt that JD was pretty bad at was acquiring major league players for lesser know talent.  Let's hope that works out better for Eppler.   The one think I like about Billy is the sly emphasis on the pool of minor league free agents.  Every year we see guys popping up on major league clubs that get it going a little later than expected.  That's an undervalued talent pool in my opinion and there is value there.  If he has a knack for finding it, then it could be a major benefit.  1 or 2 JD Martinez or Jose Bautista or even a trade for someone like a Logan Forsythe would be tremendous for this team.  

[Hollyw00d]

When Fox overpaid Arte for the rights to televise Angels games, I didn't think he'd end up saying this...

"It's the economics"

"We're doing the best we can"

No, you aren't, sir.

I'm gonna do the best I can to go to an angels game this year and spend my money