Lesson Learned?

[Angel Oracle]

Then I only have to say.

What a weenie!

Nothing like a owner panicking the other direction over one failure of a player.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[Stradling]

But when I address this issue as I have for several seasons Stradling dismisses my claims. Arte got it right this time and everybody is up in arms.

We're up in arms because it's illogical. If you're going to stop spending money why trade Newcomb and Ellis, just trade Aybar and trade CJ for whatever salary really if you can and whatever minor-league or you can get. You might as well trade Houston Street and Joe Smith as well.

[Docwaukee]

I don't really see how what he is doing is petty or some sort of panic move.  

 

The guy wants to keep the money he has in his pocket.  He produces a product, his customers give him money for it, and he wants to keep it.  

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's pretty clear that Arte is a line in the sand guy.  He'll take things to a certain point and then stop, and when he decides to stop, that is it.  

 

There is a pattern here and it's call being short-sighted.  This has lead to a disconnect between what he thinks the fans want and what they really do.  Or maybe it's a disconnect between what he wants and what the fans really do.  Either way, it has led him to believe that we care about who is on the team as much as how well they do.  

 

He's had his Angel fandom transfused.  He wasn't born a Halo fan like so many of us. So while he has a passion for winning, it's rooted in the fact that his fandom started with his ownership and not the other way around.  

 

He's certainly a baseball fan and I get that.  It's why he thinks we would love Pujols in spite of whether the team wins.  

 

so the thing he is misunderstanding is the culture of being a true fan.  we want to win first and foremost.  we love the guys that grew up Angels.  Drafted as such.  Toiled in Arkansas and Orem and Salt Lake.  We loved Vlad and Torii, but they will never be Salmon or GA to us.  And he is taking that connection away from us as if it's not that important.  As if he can transfuse these guys into our system as his love for the Angels have been transfused into him.  But it doesn't work that way and he's just not getting it.  

 

We don't want Justin Upton or David Murphy or Jason Heyward or Ben Zobrist because we really like those guys as individuals.  We want them for Kole Calhoun and Garrett Richards and Mike Trout.  But most of all, we want them so we can win.  The name on the jersey is irrelevant.  

 

Even with the fact that he has spent his money and is well-intentioned yet made poor decisions, we, as fans have stuck with the team.  Showed up and spent our money in support.  We didn't have to do that, but we did regardless of what he has done.  All three million of us.  And that is where our entitlement comes from.  We have endured his misguided efforts as well intentioned as they may have been, so we feel that he still owes us. And frankly, he kinda does.  

 

So you ask if the lesson has been learned?  Well, if the lesson is to not give out big free agent contracts then yes.  But that is not the lesson.  The true lesson is whether he has come to truly understand the mentality of a fanatic and to that, the answer is no.  

[tomsred]

We're up in arms because it's illogical. If you're going to stop spending money why trade Newcomb and Ellis, just trade Aybar and trade CJ for whatever salary really if you can and whatever minor-league or you can get. You might as well trade Houston Street and Joe Smith as well.

 

The problem may very well be that Eppler wasn't given very good direction.  How many times did we hear that Arte would go over the limit for the right player.  He did nothing to deter the image that he would support his organization's decision, and he did nothing to keep fan anticipation in check, until yesterday.  Arte can be terrible at some aspects of public relations, he just plain sends the wrong message at the wrong time, and in an inappropriate manner.  If I were an owner, I would never send a message like this from a boat in Newport Harbor, it's a terrible image.  At least put on a suit, sit down in your office, pick a favorite reporter, and discuss your reservations, and have a professional present like Tim Mead to correct something that could be misconstrued.  For all we know Eppler did not have very definite marching directions, and Arte did nothing until yesterday to deter some of Eppler's comments in the press.  Scioscia also was talking pretty boldly about beefing up the offense at the winter meetings.

 

Then I am still not certain that this fiasco wasn't an inappropriate attempt to send a message to the available outfielders who may be so far pumped up by the money spent so far that their demands are unrealistic.  That's all well and good, but I would have never sent the message the way he did it if that was my purpose.  All business executives, sports team owners, etc.., have strengths and weaknesses.  I have come to the conclusion that Arte is an amateur at public relations, he manages to insert his foot in his mouth at the wrong time, and in an inappropriate manner on many occasions.  I understand he is in a position in which the public needs to hear from him from time to time, but someone give him some better advice in how to deliver a message.

 

There may be many good reasons not to spend a wad of money on these particular free agents, none of his public reasons for not doing it have enough meat in them for fans to understand the underlying problems for his reluctance to do so.  Just to say there are financial constraints isn't enough.  It just opens up a whole further can of worms and questions about other decisions (in the past and recently), and sends his organization down the river without a paddle.  

Edited December 18, 2015 by tomsred

[Ohtaniland]

We're up in arms because it's illogical. If you're going to stop spending money why trade Newcomb and Ellis, just trade Aybar and trade CJ for whatever salary really if you can and whatever minor-league or you can get. You might as well trade Houston Street and Joe Smith as well.

Strad, signing another big splash is just wasting more money. Arte knows that so he's decided not to do it. Trout is the attraction and he will sell tickets. Trust me Opening Day will be Sold Out.

[Stradling]

Strad, signing another big splash is just wasting more money. Arte knows that so he's decided not to do it. Trout is the attraction and he will sell tickets. Trust me Opening Day will be Sold Out.

No shit opening day will be sold out

[tdawg87]

Strad, signing another big splash is just wasting more money. Arte knows that so he's decided not to do it. Trout is the attraction and he will sell tickets. Trust me Opening Day will be Sold Out.

 

Whoa. Claude really going out on a limb with this one.

[GrittyVeterans]

So let me get this straight:

 

1) Arte approves/facilitates a deal for a 32 year old injury prone drug addict

2) Arte decides to pay almost the entirety of Hamilton's salary for him to play on a rival team after the dumbass he signed relapsed

3) Arte is afraid of signing free agents now because his ridiculous gamble backfired (to no one's surprise)

 

 

This guy is the worst owner in the MLB

 

We're ****ed, get ready to be the Phillies when Trout dips

Edited December 18, 2015 by GrittyVeterans

[Stradling]

If he feels improving the team is wasting money then he should be trading players that cost money for as much talent as you can get. Trade everyone of value minus Trout.

[Stradling]

Whoa. Claude really going out on a limb with this one.

Yea but to Claude that means everything is fine and it somehow justifies his belief.

[ScottT]

While I don't think times are bad yet, they could be soon.  

 

It's not about a big splash.  It's about glaring holes and a deep free agent class.   It's about him feeling burned because he decided to sign a drug addict. And dump that drug addict.  It's about a $2.5 billion tv deal... which... coupled with the national tv deal and internet revenue....  covers his payroll.   

 

It's about economics.

[Ohtaniland]

If he feels improving the team is wasting money then he should be trading players that cost money for as much talent as you can get. Trade everyone of value minus Trout.

"Stradling mentality" ( I mean no disrespect )

Arte go sign another big splash for millions of your money and pass the luxury tax to make the fans happy even though it probably won't get us a championship.

"Arte's mentality" why should I be pressured by the fans to spend more money and pass the luxury tax when I'm already spending more money than 24 other teams? Those high priced players won't guarantee me a championship let alone playoffs. I've been burned enough by these players and agents.

[Stradling]

"Stradling mentality" ( I mean no disrespect )

Arte go sign another big splash for millions of your money and pass the luxury tax to make the fans happy even though it probably won't get us a championship.

"Arte's mentality" why should I be pressured by the fans to spend more money and pass the luxury tax when I'm already spending more money than 24 other teams? Those high priced players won't guarantee me a championship let alone playoffs. I've been burned enough by these players and agents.

To make up for the fact that he has no minor league talent to speak of because no one he's hired in the 12 years he's been here had a clue about building a minor league system after Stoneman. Last ten years they've drafted Trout, Calhoun and Grichuk and that's about it Claude.

If he's going to not spending money why bring on more salary in Escobar and Simmons? Just trade everyone that makes decent money and hit reboot while keeping Trout. I'd respect that a lot more than having no plan whatsoever.

[robblin17]

I don't really see how what he is doing is petty or some sort of panic move.

The guy wants to keep the money he has in his pocket. He produces a product, his customers give him money for it, and he wants to keep it.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's pretty clear that Arte is a line in the sand guy. He'll take things to a certain point and then stop, and when he decides to stop, that is it.

There is a pattern here and it's call being short-sighted. This has lead to a disconnect between what he thinks the fans want and what they really do. Or maybe it's a disconnect between what he wants and what the fans really do. Either way, it has led him to believe that we care about who is on the team as much as how well they do.

He's had his Angel fandom transfused. He wasn't born a Halo fan like so many of us. So while he has a passion for winning, it's rooted in the fact that his fandom started with his ownership and not the other way around.

He's certainly a baseball fan and I get that. It's why he thinks we would love Pujols in spite of whether the team wins.

so the thing he is misunderstanding is the culture of being a true fan. we want to win first and foremost. we love the guys that grew up Angels. Drafted as such. Toiled in Arkansas and Orem and Salt Lake. We loved Vlad and Torii, but they will never be Salmon or GA to us. And he is taking that connection away from us as if it's not that important. As if he can transfuse these guys into our system as his love for the Angels have been transfused into him. But it doesn't work that way and he's just not getting it.

We don't want Justin Upton or David Murphy or Jason Heyward or Ben Zobrist because we really like those guys as individuals. We want them for Kole Calhoun and Garrett Richards and Mike Trout. But most of all, we want them so we can win. The name on the jersey is irrelevant.

Even with the fact that he has spent his money and is well-intentioned yet made poor decisions, we, as fans have stuck with the team. Showed up and spent our money in support. We didn't have to do that, but we did regardless of what he has done. All three million of us. And that is where our entitlement comes from. We have endured his misguided efforts as well intentioned as they may have been, so we feel that he still owes us. And frankly, he kinda does.

So you ask if the lesson has been learned? Well, if the lesson is to not give out big free agent contracts then yes. But that is not the lesson. The true lesson is whether he has come to truly understand the mentality of a fanatic and to that, the answer is no.

This post is remarkable. Holy shit.

[Ohtaniland]

To make up for the fact that he has no minor league talent to speak of because no one he's hired in the 12 years he's been here had a clue about building a minor league system after Stoneman. Last ten years they've drafted Trout, Calhoun and Grichuk and that's about it Claude.

If he's going to not spending money why bring on more salary in Escobar and Simmons? Just trade everyone that makes decent money and hit reboot while keeping Trout. I'd respect that a lot more than having no plan whatsoever.

You have some valid points but I believe that Arte is going to change the way he does things. It's easy for us as fans to say "let's build around Trout" but the 2016 reality is that Eppler has to field a team that is more about "let's work around Pujols, Wilson, Weaver and the Hamilton contracts". Arte has paid millions and continues to pay millions to those four players in their latest contracts while netting zero playoff wins. I'm pretty sure that Arte is fed up with all of the underperforming contracts and at this point he's going to take a ramp it down approach. Maybe his wife and family is telling him to knock that overpaying sh*t off. Maybe he's preparing to sell the team so he needs to reduce its liabilities. Maybe Arte has figured out that his "win now" formula has finally come back to bite him in tha ass and he's throwing in the towel.

[Ohtaniland]

This post is remarkable. Holy shit.

+1

[Stradling]

I don't really see how what he is doing is petty or some sort of panic move.

The guy wants to keep the money he has in his pocket. He produces a product, his customers give him money for it, and he wants to keep it.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's pretty clear that Arte is a line in the sand guy. He'll take things to a certain point and then stop, and when he decides to stop, that is it.

There is a pattern here and it's call being short-sighted. This has lead to a disconnect between what he thinks the fans want and what they really do. Or maybe it's a disconnect between what he wants and what the fans really do. Either way, it has led him to believe that we care about who is on the team as much as how well they do.

He's had his Angel fandom transfused. He wasn't born a Halo fan like so many of us. So while he has a passion for winning, it's rooted in the fact that his fandom started with his ownership and not the other way around.

He's certainly a baseball fan and I get that. It's why he thinks we would love Pujols in spite of whether the team wins.

so the thing he is misunderstanding is the culture of being a true fan. we want to win first and foremost. we love the guys that grew up Angels. Drafted as such. Toiled in Arkansas and Orem and Salt Lake. We loved Vlad and Torii, but they will never be Salmon or GA to us. And he is taking that connection away from us as if it's not that important. As if he can transfuse these guys into our system as his love for the Angels have been transfused into him. But it doesn't work that way and he's just not getting it.

We don't want Justin Upton or David Murphy or Jason Heyward or Ben Zobrist because we really like those guys as individuals. We want them for Kole Calhoun and Garrett Richards and Mike Trout. But most of all, we want them so we can win. The name on the jersey is irrelevant.

Even with the fact that he has spent his money and is well-intentioned yet made poor decisions, we, as fans have stuck with the team. Showed up and spent our money in support. We didn't have to do that, but we did regardless of what he has done. All three million of us. And that is where our entitlement comes from. We have endured his misguided efforts as well intentioned as they may have been, so we feel that he still owes us. And frankly, he kinda does.

So you ask if the lesson has been learned? Well, if the lesson is to not give out big free agent contracts then yes. But that is not the lesson. The true lesson is whether he has come to truly understand the mentality of a fanatic and to that, the answer is no.

Probably the best post ever explaining our connection and expectations. You did this without the childish "Arte is evil" spin a lot of us on here would say.

[Ohtaniland]

Probably the best post ever explaining our connection and expectations. You did this without the childish "Arte is evil" spin a lot of us on here would say.

+1 again. Doc did a nice job with that.

[Stradling]

You have some valid points but I believe that Arte is going to change the way he does things. It's easy for us as fans to say "let's build around Trout" but the 2016 reality is that Eppler has to field a team that is more about "let's work around Pujols, Wilson, Weaver and the Hamilton contracts". Arte has paid millions and continues to pay millions to those four players in their latest contracts while netting zero playoff wins. I'm pretty sure that Arte is fed up with all of the underperforming contracts and at this point he's going to take a ramp it down approach. Maybe his wife and family is telling him to knock that overpaying sh*t off. Maybe he's preparing to sell the team so he needs to reduce its liabilities. Maybe Arte has figured out that his "win now" formula has finally come back to bite him in tha ass and he's throwing in the towel.

Most of that could be true except the one about his wife and family telling him to stop spending money. Like I said, if he were to go all in one direction or another I could respect that, it would suck to go through a rebuild, but I could at least see a direction. However if you are going to stop spending money when your team was a game out of a playoff spot last year, that is illogical. It also doesn't explain why they did the moves they have done this off-season before the announcement. That is my main problem with it, it seems as though we are directionless.

I do like this back and forth with you on this, but we have probably said all we can say on the subject and I am sure people are bored reading this 20 times a day for the last few weeks.

[Ohtaniland]

Jeff Fletcher Verified account ‏@JeffFletcherOCR

Re: Angels and luxury tax. I really believe Moreno is more leery of another Hamilton-like disaster than of going over the tax threshold

If that's true than Arte is just a horrible, petty owner. 2018 won't be any different, unless this asshole sells the team.

Come on TDawg, Arte tried and the players failed him. We can be thankful that he didn't go all out Billy Beane on us. But then again I like Billy Beane.

[AngelsLakersFan]

You have some valid points but I believe that Arte is going to change the way he does things. It's easy for us as fans to say "let's build around Trout" but the 2016 reality is that Eppler has to field a team that is more about "let's work around Pujols, Wilson, Weaver and the Hamilton contracts". Arte has paid millions and continues to pay millions to those four players in their latest contracts while netting zero playoff wins. I'm pretty sure that Arte is fed up with all of the underperforming contracts and at this point he's going to take a ramp it down approach. Maybe his wife and family is telling him to knock that overpaying sh*t off. Maybe he's preparing to sell the team so he needs to reduce its liabilities. Maybe Arte has figured out that his "win now" formula has finally come back to bite him in tha ass and he's throwing in the towel.

His win now approach has come back to bite him in the ass, and many on here have been saying just as much for years - going all the way back to the end of the 2009 season. Eventually the dance has to come to an end, the key is knowing when it's going to happen and how to start it up again. 

 

The problem here is that we have done nothing to try and start it up again. Absolutely nothing. All of our focus up to this point has been on keeping the party going. Everything we've done this off season has focused on keeping the party going. We still haven't bothered to try and start it back up again. Unfortunately the party is pretty shitty right now, everybody left, but somehow the coolest kid in school is contractually obligated to stay. If we are going to continue to try and keep this thing going we need to bring some people over or it's going to continue to suck. If we aren't willing to do that then we need to be focused on getting things going again.

[Ohtaniland]

Most of that could be true except the one about his wife and family telling him to stop spending money. Like I said, if he were to go all in one direction or another I could respect that, it would suck to go through a rebuild, but I could at least see a direction. However if you are going to stop spending money when your team was a game out of a playoff spot last year, that is illogical. It also doesn't explain why they did the moves they have done this off-season before the announcement. That is my main problem with it, it seems as though we are directionless.

I do like this back and forth with you on this, but we have probably said all we can say on the subject and I am sure people are bored reading this 20 times a day for the last few weeks.

Sometimes the media can get a little carried away with hyped up reports. I like Fletcher but he tweeted at the beginning of the winter meetings that we are in on numerous trades and free agents in the next 7-10 days. Well that can be very deflating to the fans that actually believed that hyped report to begin with. Remember that I immediately posted "Holy Buttercup" because I didn't believe a word of it. Oh well 2016 should be interesting and might surprise us all. Go Angels!

[Ohtaniland]

His win now approach has come back to bite him in the ass, and many on here have been saying just as much for years - going all the way back to the end of the 2009 season. Eventually the dance has to come to an end, the key is knowing when it's going to happen and how to start it up again.

The problem here is that we have done nothing to try and start it up again. Absolutely nothing. All of our focus up to this point has been on keeping the party going. Everything we've done this off season has focused on keeping the party going. We still haven't bothered to try and start it back up again. Unfortunately the party is pretty shitty right now, everybody left, but somehow the coolest kid in school is contractually obligated to stay. If we are going to continue to try and keep this thing going we need to bring some people over or it's going to continue to suck. If we aren't willing to do that then we need to be focused on getting things going again.

I see your point but going over the luxury tax is not an option. What's done is done and Eppler now has to unravel it within a specified budget. He's going to begin that process with trades and the draft. High dollar free agents might be a thing of the past for the time being.

[Angel Oracle]

I just think that Arte Moreno doesn't know how to build a baseball team, evident by his ignoring of any talent outside the states and his own farm system.

 

For WWE fans: Arte Moreno, the Zeb Colter of MLB (if it ain't American, forget about it)

[Ohtaniland]

I think Arte just got tired of adding oil to an already leaking engine. Gordon or Upton or Cespedes wasn't going to fix the real problem.