The Angels must try to rebuild AND contend

[Angel Oracle]

Trumbo is going to be special in a Big Poopy way, without the PEDs.

I would rather hope for Cron's plate discipline to improve and then package him with someone else (MLB player preferably) to acquire a solid pitcher.

NO TO CANO!

[EcksteinSpawn]

I agree with Mark, you can't really rebuild with contracts as big as Pujols and Hamilton. At the same time, it's hard right now to expect them to ever play to the level at which they're being paid (but we can hope, right?). Trading Aybar and Kendrick especially have to be on the table, as we should get high prospect returns on both. I don't see how we can trade you get guys like Borjous and Trumbo though. Going that far into a rebuilding process would do more harm than good IMO.

[austin724]

Please trade Aybar and Kendrick for better defense.

[Angel Oracle]

What happened to Aybar's defense?

He used to be really solid.

[ettin]

Lifetime wins...fatality

 

If he gets four more he will have a PentaKill (obscure game reference that I fully expect no one to get).

[DMVol]

Trumbo is going to be special in a Big Poopy way, without the PEDs.

 

Is Poopy Big Poppy's nasty twin brother? 

[STLCardinalsFan]

My question for you guys is how much will you have available to spend and get the right pieces to contend? Pujols and Hambone contracts have to take up quite a chunk of payroll for you guys to spend. I'm sure Trout's value will continue to grow as well so that's something to keep in mind. 

 

I don't know much about the inner workings of the Angels like some of you guys, but if the Cardinals would have kept Pujols we would have been in quite a hole. Ours is 116 million. I know we like to stay under 120 mil.

[Mudville]

The Cardinals did try to sign Pujols and for essentially  the same yearly salary but for fewer years. So your predicament would have been hitting a payroll ceiling quicker while the Angels still have room regardless of where they are now. Going forward the payroll for the Angels is not going to stop them from acquiring players they think they need to turn the team's fortunes around, even though each year many here claim it will.

[markb]

This forum needs an algorithm that detects mention of Trout being traded and immediately converts the Post button to a link to http://locator.apa.org/

[STLCardinalsFan]

The Cardinals did try to sign Pujols and for essentially  the same yearly salary but for fewer years. So your predicament would have been hitting a payroll ceiling quicker while the Angels still have room regardless of where they are now. Going forward the payroll for the Angels is not going to stop them from acquiring players they think they need to turn the team's fortunes around, even though each year many here claim it will.

 

That we did. It would have been almost impossible to make the signings that we did when AP left. We signed Molina, Wainwright and extended Freese and Craig while getting Miller.

 

I hate to say it because I loved watching AP play here in STL, but it seems like the Cardinals got the better end of the deal as of right now. Who knows what would have happened if we would have kept AP. Would the Cardinals have been better then they are now? Or Worse? 

 

That's good news that you have that extra space to acquire other players to help out. I didn't know if you'd be hindered by their contracts. 

[T.G.]

It's not just Hamilton and the pitching...this team leads the league in hitting into double plays and is tied for second with the most errors in baseball.  It's also given up the most stolen bases and has turned the fewest double plays.

[Lifetime]

not disagreeing that errors are a big factor, but I think poor pitching plays into that defense as well. It affects the defense and the offense who press trying to compensate for poor pitching. Go the extra mile to try to mitigate the damage of struggling pitching.

[Angel Oracle]

Pitchers that have spotty command could tend to cause defenders to not play wth the same total focus (on the front of their feet)due to the time between batted balls being more extensive.

 

An interesting stat would be to see how the defense has done when the starters have had good command, vs. questionable command. 

 

This team was solid defensively just a year ago.

[halomatt]

Also with regards to the double plays, this staff is (or is supposed to be) a fly ball oriented group in order to take advantage of our remarkable outfielders. 

[Troll Daddy]

Rebuilding really isn't a option for the Angels. The outfield is set for the next few years. It really wouldn't be wise to trade Aybar or Kendrick anytime soon. The catcher(s) position looks like it will stay pat for next season. You could try to improve at third base through in-house or trade. I think the bench is really what needs rebuilding the most. That's about all you can do on the offensive side of things.

 

Pitching is really the primary problem with this team. Hanson and Vargas will be free agents next season. I would think the Angels will try to keep Vargas in the rotation for next season. The bullpen is still a mess ...  (rebuilding) good luck with that!

[Mark68]

My question for you guys is how much will you have available to spend and get the right pieces to contend? Pujols and Hambone contracts have to take up quite a chunk of payroll for you guys to spend. I'm sure Trout's value will continue to grow as well so that's something to keep in mind. 

 

I don't know much about the inner workings of the Angels like some of you guys, but if the Cardinals would have kept Pujols we would have been in quite a hole. Ours is 116 million. I know we like to stay under 120 mil.

Infinity times infinity.

[tdawg87]

not disagreeing that errors are a big factor, but I think poor pitching plays into that defense as well. It affects the defense and the offense who press trying to compensate for poor pitching. Go the extra mile to try to mitigate the damage of struggling pitching.

 

Agreed. Guys like Weaver can benefit from good defense because they force weak contact. It's hard to field line drives over your head.

[desiderata]

STLCardinalsFan, on 24 Jun 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

My question for you guys is how much will you have available to spend and get the right pieces to contend? Pujols and Hambone contracts have to take up quite a chunk of payroll for you guys to spend. I'm sure Trout's value will continue to grow as well so that's something to keep in mind. 

 

I don't know much about the inner workings of the Angels like some of you guys, but if the Cardinals would have kept Pujols we would have been in quite a hole. Ours is 116 million. I know we like to stay under 120 mil.

 

Aybar for Wacha and the rest of your glorious farm.

[Kenny]

We might need to give up some peices, but pitching is a problem this team has had for far too long.

[Docwaukee]

whatever could go wrong this year has. 

 

some things easily fixable, some things will fix themselves, and some things are almost impossible to fix. 

 

as constructed, the team is good.  IF, and it's a big if, injuries don't occur and Pujols and Hamilton perform.  They aren't great by any means and probably a borderline playoff team if things go decently well.  Not this year but certainly going forward. 

 

The big question is, will Albert and Josh be enough like the way they used to be to get them to that point.  No one knows the answer to that, but the one thing we do know is that we are stuck with these guys for 4 more years so I think it's worth finding out. 

 

You could blow things up, but if both of those guys and Trout have good years and you don't have a supporting cast, you have wasted an opportunity

 

It's very doubtful that even a very good offseason will rebuild the starting pitching.    You are stuck with the like of Wilson, Hanson, Blanton and what may be a declining Weaver.  You may lose Vargas to free agency but even if you keep him, he's a solid middle of the rotation guy. 

 

To me, the cheapest and most effective way to get the most out of this team without committing big money to a potential dud FA SP in their 30's is to do a couple of things:

 

1.  If you have young replacements or redundancy you can trade those redundant players for upgrades at other positions.  Unfortunately, the opportunities with the halos farm system are few and far between.  You essentially have two players that could replace others to net you something in a trade.  Calhoun and Conger.  You let those guys play the rest of the season and determine whether they could make Bourjos and Ianetta expendable.  While a trade a Ianetta wouldn't net much, trading Bourjos could get you a nice SP.  Even if Calhoun doesn't pan out, you could sign a stop gap OF/1b/DH type pretty easily to get you some decent production.  Ianetta's value in a trade could net you a pen arm or some farm depth

 

2.  If you don't have an imminent replacement for a player, you only trade those about to hit FAcy.  ie Downs and Vargas this year.  (if Vargas can get healthy of course).  If someone is willing to take Blanton, you don't hang up the phone until he's off the team.  Same thing with Hanson.

 

3.  You make the 6th-9th innings a non issue.  I know general consensus is that you don't want to spend a lot of money on bullpen guys, but it's the cheapest way to improve the pitching considering you are essentially locked in to a few starters with no farm and very few FA sp options that won't cost a ton of money at fairly high risk.  Put your team in a position to win the games you should and sneak out a few others.  To me, this has been the big flaw in the Dipoto model.  Teams can win with a strong offense and mediocre SP if and only if the last 3 to 4 innings are rarely in doubt.  I give JD a pass on the SP for the most part, but he hasn't done enough with the pen to make up for it. 

 

A SP obtained for Bourjos, Calhoun or a reasonable FA 1b/DH/OFer, and at least two pen arms including a legit closer will not break the team financially and goes a long way to giving this team a chance to win.  Again, contingent on pujols and hamilton hitting the baseball.  If it doesn't work and you are in a similar position in 2014 at the ASB because of those two guys, then you hopefully have Cron and Lindsey and maybe Grichuk knocking on the door that could give you some options with trading Kendrick, Trumbo, and Calhoun or the FA acquisition for more starting pitching. 

 

Revamp year to year.  It's the only true option. 

[Angel Oracle]

And build a strong foreign presence, there, I said it yet again!

No more TOTAL ignoring of the Far East and the numerous pitchers that have come from there!

[Angel Oracle]

I'm okay with that.

This focusing only on high priced FAs sure ain't working, and has never worked in the long run.

[gotbeer]

And build a strong foreign presence, there, I said it yet again!

No more TOTAL ignoring of the Far East and the numerous pitchers that have come from there!

 

 

Yes, but maybe 1 in 5 of them have made an impact.  Or at least an impact in a positive way.  

 

It's just like any prospect, you just never know.  Just like a great hitter who fails 65% of the time as opposed to 75% of the time, a great scout probably fails 90% of the time as opposed to 95% of the time.  

 

But, at least in Asia, you get to scout after the player has an extensive look at AAAA.  But the jump from AAAA to the MLB is still a very big step, that many can not do well.

[Angel Oracle]

+1 to Doc's #3 item...because the O's had shaky starting pitching in 2012, but got to the post-season because they had a great bullpen. 

[floplag]

It's funny... everyone always thiks you can improve without giving away quality.

I've been guilty of it too.. but lets be honest... what do we have that we could traede, that would bring back anything of real help?

 

Lets start with need... SP?  your not going to get much better than what we have trading Kendrick and Schuck.

 

What the organization needs is a change.. it ideology, methiodology.. something.  Whatever the message is, it isnt getting thru at this point. 

 

Watching this team play is like watching some kid thats dad forced him to go play little league when he would rather be playing his PS3.  They look disinterested, going thru the motions, and generally acting like they dont give a shit if they win or lose.

 

You cant trade for attitude.

 

At this point i would honestly consider nothing untouchable.. why keep trout and miss the playoffs every year.  If we truly are this bad then make changes and get some people in here that have the balls to want to win.

 

We have nothing on the farm of any real value to trade.

 

How do you change this club without giving away something you dont want to?  answer, you cant.  I dont want to trade the Trouts or Trumbos but you have to at least consider offers... its the name on the front that matters, not the back.  Are we really prepared to give trout the combined value of Hamilton and Pujols in the nest few years. that has to be considered as well?