The Toll of Trading Prospects

[Glen]

So how much has Arte spent on scouts?  How much more would be enough?  How do we get better scouts? 

[Angel Oracle]

That is the $64k question.

 

Obviously, judging by how many prospects have panned out, how many acquisitions have panned out, and how many unknown Cy Youngs have dominated us, the scouts sure haven't earned their keep.

[Second Base]

I think a lot of those guys are destined for roles in the pen, but right now, that's what the Angels need, good RP.  Pena, Hellweg, Roach, Torres would all be legitimate candidates. 

[xboom28x]

When a majority of these trades were made, the player the Angels got in return answered a need, some more vitally than others. With Grienke it was to slide CJ down to the 3rd spot, Haren 4th and making Santana a bullpen option in the playoffs had they made it.

 

Frieri answered a HUGE need. I think some of you are forgetting how horrible the pen was last season. Worse than this year and that's saying a lot!

 

The Haren trade was accepted by all at the time. We thought we were getting another ace. No one knew at the time of the deal that he was going to fade out as quickly as he did. Had he met his potential the remainder of the contract, no one would even care who was traded for him.

 

Looking back, you can say that there were bad deals. But, at the time the deals were made, the deals were fair. Some would argue we got a good deal. That is the nature of trading.

[xboom28x]

I think a lot of those guys are destined for roles in the pen, but right now, that's what the Angels need, good RP.  Pena, Hellweg, Roach, Torres would all be legitimate candidates. 

 

Maybe to help 2-3 years from now. How does that answer the need today?

[AZMike]

When a majority of these trades were made, the player the Angels got in return answered a need, some more vitally than others. With Grienke it was to slide CJ down to the 3rd spot, Haren 4th and making Santana a bullpen option in the playoffs had they made it.

 

Frieri answered a HUGE need. I think some of you are forgetting how horrible the pen was last season. Worse than this year and that's saying a lot!

 

The Haren trade was accepted by all at the time. We thought we were getting another ace. No one knew at the time of the deal that he was going to fade out as quickly as he did. Had he met his potential the remainder of the contract, no one would even care who was traded for him.

 

Looking back, you can say that there were bad deals. But, at the time the deals were made, the deals were fair. Some would argue we got a good deal. That is the nature of trading.

 

The problem with the Dan Haren trade wasn't that the terms were unfair, just that it didn't make sense at the time. Right move at the wrong time. Angels were under 500 and our best offensive player was out for the season with a broken ankle. It was unlikely a single pitcher, however good, was going to push us over the top in 2010/2011. We should've been accumulating prospects in 2010 not dealing them. Ironically, the DBacks might've won the world series in 2011 had they kept Haren.

[xboom28x]

The problem with the Dan Haren trade wasn't that the terms were unfair, just that it didn't make sense at the time. Right move at the wrong time. Angels were under 500 and our best offensive player was out for the season with a broken ankle. It was unlikely a single pitcher, however good, was going to push us over the top in 2010/2011. We should've been accumulating prospects in 2010 not dealing them. Ironically, the DBacks might've won the world series in 2011 had they kept Haren.

 

He was under contract for another year plus an option that, if he was still pitching to his capabilities, was worth the money. That was the reason for the deal... not just for that year.

[Mark68]

Just like Wood, Mathis, Arredondo, and Sean Rodriguez, right?

McPherson

[tdawg87]

Wait why are we talking about Arredondo in this thread? He wasn't even traded.

[ScottT]

I blame Jerry Dipoto.  

 

In all seriousness, the deals lately have been reasonable.  The most recent ones aren't working out, but could have.  Oh, well.  At least they are trying, unlike previous years where they just held everyone.  Some people gave them shit for trading guys like Sean Rodriguez and Sean O'Sullivan. 

[ScottT]

You guys want Tyler Chatwood back, too?

[Halos of Anaheim]

You guys want Tyler Chatwood back, too?

Your avi scares me.

[worldofx]

Amarista for Frieri was a great trade.

 

I was cool with trading Segura since he was blocked, but man does he look good so far this year.

[T.G.]

There's probably a thread like this for every team...

[HaloCory22]

Patrick Corbin continuing to impress. Sigh...

[adenhart34]

If Fuentes hadn't grooved an 0-2 fastball to ARod in game 2 of the ALCS you'd all be saying "but it was worth it".

[Angelsjunky]

My newest article at MWAH - http://www.monkeywithahalo.com/2013-articles/april/the-toll-of-trading-prospects.html

 

It's legitimately entertaining to envision a farm system with Segura, Skaggs, Corbin, Amarista, Hellweg, Pena and Donn Roach in it.  In fact, arguably, if the Angels didn't pull these trades, they'd have the strongest farm system in baseball.

 

This means that arguments that say the Angels don't develop certain kinds of players is completely false.  The Angels are as good as anyone at developing legitimate talent.  But when you trade away most of the legitimate talent, you're left will what the Angels have now, which is lacking in certain areas. 

 

That's a huge jump in reasoning, Scotty. As some have said, it remains to be seen how those prospects will pan out. Segura and Corbin are in the majors and look good--although it is early. Skaggs still projects as a #2-3 starter, Roach #3-4 (I'm guessing). Amarista looks like a fringe starter or decent UT guy, and both Hellweg and Pena look destined to be back-end starters or relievers. A solid bunch, but not great - and no surefire or even likely stars.

[YouthofToday]

Fuentes would have groved a fastball in 1-2 or 2-2 count too. He really was not a good reliever for us. Another terrible signing by a former GM who believed in the CLOSER and save stat.

[avejoe1]

The Angels minor league system is deficient because it is always deficient.  It was not an accident that Cedar Rapids dropped the Angels for another organization.  It was not an accident that Rancho dropped the Angels who had to go out to San Bernardino.  These cities/stadiums gave up on the Angels because they were not provided the prospects to make their teams successful.  Salt Lake remains the AAA city because no one else wants it.  Arkansas remains with the Angels because they have a giant outfield which screws up power hitting prospects.  This shows long-term neglect by the Angels of their minor league system.

 

The Angels have been plugging holes like firemen in the major league club for many, many years by signing major league free agents with compensation due and by trading away minor league prospects.  The problem has been in the PARENT CLUB.  A team should be able to bring up trained, tested, minor league quality prospects to plug holes and then use them in a manner that they gain experience to grow into major league regulars.  Scioscia doesn't train prospects.  Prospects are brought up too early and then discarded (see newest examples to be:  Michael Kohn, Roth, Maronde).  Draft choices have been significantly lesser due to compensation.  Draft choices exercised have often been busts.  Money to buy top prospects when that system was in place was not spent (Buster Posey, Matt Harvey, Nick Castellanos).  International free agents were not signed (like the Rangers and Athletics regularly do). The International Director was lining his pocket instead of doing his job.  Dominican players and that minor team were neglected.

 

I am not indicting Jerry Dipoto in this as he was left with Tony Reagins mess which was Bill Stoneman's mess, etc. etc.  Throwing money at Gary Matthews Jr, Albert Pujols and Hamilton is not the solution, it is the problem.  Trading for Dan Haren and Vernon Wells is not the solution, it is the problem.  Arte Moreno has to start investing heavily in acquiring and preparing prospects so when holes arrive in the Angels, there are minor league prospects ready to move up.  Once a fire has started, it is a bit late to start thinking about fire prevention.

[Angel Oracle]

Standing O, Avejoe, you nailed it.    The only disagreement is that Stoneman believed in a strong farm. 

It was Moreno and Reagins who destroyed it.    Arte refuses to invest in Latin America or the Far East, and that exacerbated the issue even more when including Eddie Bane drafting mostly high risk, high reward players who mostly flamed out.

 

The only true mistakes Stoneman made were holding on too many prospects for too long, never offering arb to pending FAs, hiring Eddie Bane, and signing GMJHGH.   That isn't bad for 8 years as a GM (twice the length of time for Reagins).

Next to J. Pierpont Finch Reagins, Stoneman was a genius. 

[AZMike]

Standing O, Avejoe, you nailed it.    The only disagreement is that Stoneman believed in a strong farm. 

It was Moreno and Reagins who destroyed it.    Arte refuses to invest in Latin America or the Far East, and that exacerbated the issue even more when including Eddie Bane drafting mostly high risk, high reward players who mostly flamed out.

 

The only true mistakes Stoneman made were holding on too many prospects for too long, never offering arb to pending FAs, hiring Eddie Bane, and signing GMJHGH.   That isn't bad for 8 years as a GM (twice the length of time for Reagins).

Next to J. Pierpont Finch Reagins, Stoneman was a genius. 

I continue to believe -- despite his statements to the contrary -- that Arte Moreno himself was the primary decision maker behind most of our "big splash" deals (Guerrero, Matthews, Hunter, Wells, Pujols, Hamilton). Maybe he didn't say "go get player x and give them y million dollars, but I believe he gave his GM's a mandate to make big moves for a sexy power bat or marquee player largely for marketing reasons. 

 

Stoneman was conservative to a fault with his moves. Reagins was the pendulum swinging teh oher way making deals with reckless abandon seemingly for the sake of making moves. Dipoto seems a lot more willing to make aggressive moves but so far seems to be more competent at Reagins as far as negotating fair value in trades. Early impressions are that he has assembled a better good staff of scouts etc.

 

My biggest gripe with Dipoto so far was agreeing to pay Blanton $15.5M. I didn't mind getting Blanton but paying so much for him seems rather Reagins-esque....

[Inside Pitch]

I think a lot of those guys are destined for roles in the pen, but right now, that's what the Angels need, good RP.  Pena, Hellweg, Roach, Torres would all be legitimate candidates. 

 

 

Pena and Hellweg would be legit candidates to walk the bases loaded.  In Pena's case he's a good candidate to give up a HR as well, he;s not fared well since moving out of a pitcher friendly situation in Arkansas.  It's not often that guys who struggle to throw strikes as badly as Pena get worse and yet Pena's command has in fact regressed.

 

Donn Roach was a legit prospect who throws a really heavy ball.  

[Inside Pitch]

When a majority of these trades were made, the player the Angels got in return answered a need, some more vitally than others. With Grienke it was to slide CJ down to the 3rd spot, Haren 4th and making Santana a bullpen option in the playoffs had they made it.

 

Frieri answered a HUGE need. I think some of you are forgetting how horrible the pen was last season. Worse than this year and that's saying a lot!

 

The Haren trade was accepted by all at the time. We thought we were getting another ace. No one knew at the time of the deal that he was going to fade out as quickly as he did. Had he met his potential the remainder of the contract, no one would even care who was traded for him.

 

Looking back, you can say that there were bad deals. But, at the time the deals were made, the deals were fair. Some would argue we got a good deal. That is the nature of trading.

 

 

There were signs Haren was on a slippery slope, but I don't fault the Halos for having made the move... They were thinking at more than one year and Haren did have a history of being a workhorse.  

 

It looked like a good move until he imploded.

[Inside Pitch]

I am not indicting Jerry Dipoto in this as he was left with Tony Reagins mess which was Bill Stoneman's mess, etc. etc.  Throwing money at Gary Matthews Jr, Albert Pujols and Hamilton is not the solution, it is the problem.  Trading for Dan Haren and Vernon Wells is not the solution, it is the problem.  Arte Moreno has to start investing heavily in acquiring and preparing prospects so when holes arrive in the Angels, there are minor league prospects ready to move up.  Once a fire has started, it is a bit late to start thinking about fire prevention.

 

 

Bill Stoneman has forgotten more about how to put a farm system together than Jerry Dipoto has managed to learn.  To be fair, he had Gary Sutherland, the architect of the Expos impressive talent pipeline, but the "mess" he inherited from Bill Bavasi was significantly worse than what Dipoto has had to deal with and he didn't have an owner willing to buy it's way out of the mediocrity.

 

Bill Stoneman took the farm from where it was ranked 30th overall to 1st within 5 years, in-between he won a WS..  The fruits of his labor have carried the Angels for much of the last decade.  He bored the piss out of me too and there is no denying he was extremely conservative which plays to his background in banking, an industry that's all about risk aversion.  It amazes me how much people tend to dismiss the impact he had on the franchise, or how much his footprint is STILL on this team.

 

Gary Sutherland BTW was a straight out scouting savant.

[dimitrig]

Bill Stoneman has forgotten more about how to put a farm system together than Jerry Dipoto has managed to learn.  To be fair, he had Gary Sutherland, the architect of the Expos impressive talent pipeline, but the "mess" he inherited from Bill Bavasi was significantly worse than what Dipoto has had to deal with and he didn't have an owner willing to buy it's way out of the mediocrity.

 

Bill Stoneman took the farm from where it was ranked 30th overall to 1st within 5 years, in-between he won a WS..  The fruits of his labor have carried the Angels for much of the last decade.  He bored the piss out of me too and there is no denying he was extremely conservative which plays to his background in banking, an industry that's all about risk aversion.  It amazes me how much people tend to dismiss the impact he had on the franchise, or how much his footprint is STILL on this team.

 

Gary Sutherland BTW was a straight out scouting savant.

 

F'in Stoneman!