Spin Forum Dumping Bin

[UndertheHalo]

31 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Russia knew they were going to end up in a war with Germany because Hitler talked about it in Mein Kamph. But they did agree to carve up Poland. And Stalin did attempt to join up with the Axis powers but Hitler ignored him. I think that’s what Stalin was trying to do to prevent a war with Germany.
 

Russia then goes after Finland who then teamed up with Germany in some aspects. Europe was pretty much a shit show.

I know the communists and fascists were mortal enemies (which is why it’s funny when some on the right call others communists and fascists. They obviously don’t know those two don’t mesh). Which is why they both ended up in war with one another eventually.

But both had aspirations for bringing Europe and other parts of the world under their sphere of influence through whatever means necessary. Even if that meant for awhile they were cordial with one another, knowing it wouldn’t last. That’s why I don’t think they were different from one another in that sense. Politically they might have been different but that’s about it in my opinion.

 

No argument from me on Britain as well as the U.S. No country has clean hands.

 

Ok, I think I understand your view a bit more.  I don’t think we agree entirely but it’s fine.  Close enough.  
 

I will say though, people often talk about the Soviets expansionist ambitions.  I think historical fact counters this argument almost entirely after Lenin’s death.  Global revolution was Lenin’s dream - and the dream of many western communists  (this is an interesting and vast topic and also really not the same as Nazi Hegemonic ambitions but we can leave that where it is) - but it mostly died with Lenin.  Stalin turned inward.  He had no interest in it and for the rest of its existence the Soviet Union didn’t really.  We can look at conflicts all over the globe during the cold war and while the Soviets would support communist movements in terms of aid (military and various other economic means) they very rarely committed militarily. A great example is in Korea where they genuinely could have gone in but in the end refused.  The truth of it is that the USSR global hegemony thing was mostly unfounded and false.  It’s certainly true that this was misunderstood and perceived as a real threat to the west during the Cold War years.  But today we have the Soviet archives and we know it was never something they were serious about pursuing. 

[Taylor]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

Ok, I think I understand your view a bit more.  I don’t think we agree entirely but it’s fine.  Close enough.  
 

I will say though, people often talk about the Soviets expansionist ambitions.  I think historical fact counters this argument almost entirely after Lenin’s death.  Global revolution was Lenin’s dream - and the dream of many western communists  (this is an interesting and vast topic and also really not the same as Nazi Hegemonic ambitions but we can leave that where it is) - but it mostly died with Lenin.  Stalin turned inward.  He had no interest in it and for the rest of its existence the Soviet Union didn’t really.  We can look at conflicts all over the globe during the cold war and while the Soviets would support communist movements in terms of aid (military and various other economic means) they very rarely committed militarily. A great example is in Korea where they genuinely could have gone in but in the end refused.  The truth of it is that the USSR global hegemony thing was mostly unfounded and false.  It’s certainly true that this was misunderstood and perceived as a real threat to the west during the Cold War years.  But today we have the Soviet archives and we know it was never something they were serious about pursuing. 

The U.S. did way more shady shit than the USSR did after the start of the Cold War.

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Taylor said:

The U.S. did way more shady shit than the USSR did after the start of the Cold War.

I think the more correct word is aggressive.  The US and its western allies were far more aggressive.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by UndertheHalo

[Kevin]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

Ok, I think I understand your view a bit more.  I don’t think we agree entirely but it’s fine.  Close enough.  
 

I will say though, people often talk about the Soviets expansionist ambitions.  I think historical fact counters this argument almost entirely after Lenin’s death.  Global revolution was Lenin’s dream - and the dream of many western communists  (this is an interesting and vast topic and also really not the same as Nazi Hegemonic ambitions but we can leave that where it is) - but it mostly died with Lenin.  Stalin turned inward.  He had no interest in it and for the rest of its existence the Soviet Union didn’t really.  We can look at conflicts all over the globe during the cold war and while the Soviets would support communist movements in terms of aid (military and various other economic means) they very rarely committed militarily. A great example is in Korea where they genuinely could have gone in but in the end refused.  The truth of it is that the USSR global hegemony thing was mostly unfounded and false.  It’s certainly true that this was misunderstood and perceived as a real threat to the west during the Cold War years.  But today we have the Soviet archives and we know it was never something they were serious about pursuing. 

My main point, when it came to Stalin vs Hitler, it was pretty much bad fighting bad. Murderous dictator fighting murderous dictator. Stalin killed millions of his own people along with who knows how many outside his country and we all know what Hitler did.

I just used Poland as an example.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

 

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Kevin said:

My main point, when it came to Stalin vs Hitler, it was pretty much bad fighting bad. Murderous dictator fighting murderous dictator. Stalin killed millions of his own people along with who knows how many outside his country and we all know what Hitler did.

I just used Poland as an example.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

 

Ok you’re making it about these two individuals.  As I said, im not going to debate you about Stalin.  But I will strongly disagree that the Soviet Union was the same kind of evil that Nazi Germany was.  The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were at war.  Not just Stalin and Hitler. 

[tdawg87]

I get where Kevin is coming from. But yeah I mean when we talk about war in the context of WWII, it can't really be a "both sides" thing. Without Stalin and Russia, do the allies win the war? I think it's a question worth considering.

And yes, Stalin was also a piece of shit.

[UndertheHalo]

@Kevin you seem to be a person who enjoys history.  I strongly urge you to read this book about the end of the Soviet Union.  Really excellent  un colored history. 
 

Collapse: The Fall of the Soviet Union https://a.co/d/8nOS7Mj

[UndertheHalo]

4 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I get where Kevin is coming from. But yeah I mean when we talk about war in the context of WWII, it can't really be a "both sides" thing. Without Stalin and Russia, do the allies win the war? I think it's a question worth considering.

And yes, Stalin was also a piece of shit.

The answer is no.  Also the Soviet Union was far more than russia.  Soldiers of a whole variety of ethnic backgrounds fought in the red army in their millions.  Not just Russians.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by UndertheHalo

[Kevin]

20 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Ok you’re making it about these two individuals.  As I said, im not going to debate you about Stalin.  But I will strongly disagree that the Soviet Union was the same kind of evil that Nazi Germany was.  The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were at war.  Not just Stalin and Hitler. 

Germany takes the cake. We both agree on that. But the Soviets were no angels either. Since we’re talking World War II, I’m just sticking with that specific topic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

I just think Russia was less shitty than Germany but still shitty nonetheless during the 30’s and 40’s.  

 

[UndertheHalo]

8 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Germany takes the cake. We both agree on that. But the Soviets were no angels either. Since we’re talking World War II, I’m just sticking with that specific topic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

I just think Russia was less shitty than Germany but still shitty nonetheless during the 30’s and 40’s.  

 

Never argued that they were angels! But as you said, nobodies hands are clean.  Certainly not theirs.  But the Nazis were on a substantially different plane.  Imo.  
 

also, this seems like some “victims of communism” type stuff which I’m going to be completely honest with you.  Is an organization that I regard as deeply dishonest and not worth taking seriously.  
 

If we’re going to expand out all the crimes committed during world war 2 are the Dresden firebombings fair game? The Tokyo fire bombings? I mean let’s at least call spades spades. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by UndertheHalo

[Kevin]

38 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I get where Kevin is coming from. But yeah I mean when we talk about war in the context of WWII, it can't really be a "both sides" thing. Without Stalin and Russia, do the allies win the war? I think it's a question worth considering.

And yes, Stalin was also a piece of shit.

Possibly but that really depends what Russia would be doing. If they remained neutraL, I think the Allies could still defeat Germany but it would take a lot longer and the death toll would be a lot worse. The industrial capability of the U.S. could have been the trump card. During Germanys invasion of Russia, they were still using horses in part to help move supplies. But “what if” history is tough because the assumption is events would turn out to be the opposite of what actually happened. But there’s no knowing.

[UndertheHalo]

8 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Possibly but that really depends what Russia would be doing. If they remained neutraL, I think the Allies could still defeat Germany but it would take a lot longer and the death toll would be a lot worse. The industrial capability of the U.S. could have been the trump card. During Germanys invasion of Russia, they were still using horses in part to help move supplies. But “what if” history is tough because the assumption is events would turn out to be the opposite of what actually happened. But there’s no knowing.

Both the Germans and the Japanese? I don’t know man.  It’s interesting to think about.  The good thing is that we did have the Soviets.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by UndertheHalo

[Kevin]

20 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Never argued that they were angels! But as you said, nobodies hands are clean.  Certainly not theirs.  But the Nazis were on a substantially different plane.  Imo.  
 

also, this seems like some “victims of communism” type stuff which I’m going to be completely honest with you.  Is an organization that I regard as deeply dishonest and not worth taking seriously.  
 

If we’re going to expand out all the crimes committed during world war 2 are the Dresden firebombings fair game? The Tokyo fire bombings? I mean let’s at least call spades spades. 

Oh I agree. I was just more focused on Germany and Russia due to Canada clapping for a Nazi tweet Geoff posted.

I’ll alter my original point. Really shitty terrible bad people fighting less shitty questionable people.

There that aught to do it.

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Kevin said:

Oh I agree. I was just more focused on Germany and Russia due to Canada’s clapping for a Nazi tweet Geoff posted.

I’ll alter my original point. Really shitty terrible bad people fighting less shitty questionable people.

There that aught to do it.

Canada has a really loud Ukrainian population that showed up after ww2.  I’ll let you take some guesses at who those people were and why they have Nazi monuments up around Canada and why this old man is there at all.  
 

we’ll just say.  They really needed to not be around once the Soviets drove the Nazis back west.  

[UndertheHalo]

Also the great majority of Ukrainians fought in soviet army.  This is an important point that needs to be emphasized.  

[Kevin]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

Canada has a really loud Ukrainian population that showed up after ww2.  I’ll let you take some guesses at who those people were and why they have Nazi monuments up around Canada and why this old man is there at all.  
 

we’ll just say.  They really needed to not be around once the Soviets drove the Nazis back west.  

If I remember correctly from a documentary I watched a while back, there were some Russians and Ukrainians that saw the Nazis as liberators from Stalin when operation Barbarossa commenced and welcomed them with open arms. So I’m not surprised by this. Just had no idea there were that many in Canada.

[UndertheHalo]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

If I remember correctly from a documentary I watched a while back, there were some Russians and Ukrainians that saw the Nazis as liberators from Stalin when operation Barbarossa commenced and welcomed them with open arms. So I’m not surprised by this. Just had no idea there were that many in Canada.

Oh definitely.  There remains a not insignificant fascist movement in Russia today as there is in Ukraine.  You posted stuff earlier that got a bit into the terror.  Look, the Soviets did some real awful stuff.  At least part of that was the ferocious hunting of enemies of party.  Many of those enemies were fascists.  Definitely not all of them  The terror was quite ugly and bad.  But I’ll say at least some of the people that got got in that.  Well, I don’t feel bad for some of them.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by UndertheHalo

[Blarg]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:12 AM, St1ck said:

This fucking dude had bars of gold stashed at his house. That's almost cartoonish.

 

Why? I have a friend that has registered Krugerrands in a locked safe. It's what some people do as a security against the chance banks fail and the dollar loses value. Gold holds it's value against economic collapse. It may border on paranoia but it causes no one harm. 

[cals]

I’ve never read a couple of AW pages where everyone sounds like men in their 50s and 60s.  

[cals]

Except Taylor, who, as always, sounds like someone’s annoying little sister.

[St1ck]

7 hours ago, Blarg said:

Why? I have a friend that has registered Krugerrands in a locked safe. It's what some people do as a security against the chance banks fail and the dollar loses value. Gold holds it's value against economic collapse. It may border on paranoia but it causes no one harm. 

Did your friend receive those gold bars in exchange for political favors?

[Jason]

1 hour ago, St1ck said:

Did your friend receive those gold bars in exchange for political favors?

Blarg isn’t going to say anything as he understands that snitches get stitches. 

[Jay]

8 hours ago, cals said:

I’ve never read a couple of AW pages where everyone sounds like men in their 50s and 60s.  

I see now why we call it the "dumping bin"

[St1ck]

46 minutes ago, Jason said:

Blarg isn’t going to say anything as he understands that snitches get stitches. 

Blarg would be the first person to rat someone out. All they would have to offer is a cheeseburger. 

[UndertheHalo]

The only problem here is that his family left before the revolution.  
 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by UndertheHalo