In defense of Arte Moreno

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, TempeAngel said:

This explains why Arte is a bad owner.

no it doesn't.  It explains why the Dogs org is better than everyone else when it comes to scouting and development.  

[TempeAngel]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  

So maybe you took the time to read the article. Maybe not. If not, read it now. What do you think?

I'm a lifelong Angels fan. My earliest Angels memories were listening to Dick Enberg on my transistor radio under my pillow as a kid.

It is "ok" to love the Angels and also critique them.

 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

5 hours ago, JVel17 said:

I am an Angels fan since the late 70's and am disgusted by the direction of the team under Arte Moreno.

Some reasons for this disgust that will compare the Angels "organization" to the Dodgers (not just the Major League team, but the organization from bottom up):

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, since I am basically interrupting right here. The Dodgers are not superior in every way to every other organization, and they have not cornered the market on any given strategy. They have a buttwad of money and they throw it around liberally. They are to the game right now what the Yankees were during the era of Steinbrenner. They can afford to make mistakes, because they just cast the bad money off and spend more. No other club can do that at the level that they do. Having more money that everyone else allows you the luxury of adding multiple levels of administration and so forth. It doesn't make you better at the job.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Vegas Halo Fan

[JVel17]

17 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, since I am basically interrupting right here. The Dodgers are not superior in every way to every other organization, and they have not cornered the market on any given strategy . They have a buttwad of money and they throw it around liberally. They are to the game right now what the Yankees were during the era of Steinbrenner. They can afford to make mistakes, because they just cast the bad money off and spend more. No other club can do that at the level that they do.

I agree to the extent that the Dodgers have a buttwad of money.

However, if you read the Baseball America article, there is a lot more the Dodgers are doing other than throwing their wad of money at free agents for the major league roster.  It has to do with creating a foundation for your whole baseball organization that later churns out more highly regarded young players year after year than most other organizations.  This is separate from throwing money at free agents for your Major League roster.

Also, doesn't Arte also have a buttwad of money?  Arte is afterall a multibillionaire and the Angels have a TV deal that creates a LOT of revenue.

Basically, it would be like running your organization from the bottom up in a similar fashion to the  Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays, except with the additional buttwad of money that would allow the team to consistently go after high priced free agents (that Oakland and TB don't have the financial wherewithal like the Dodgers and Angels).  This should be a luxury the Dodgers AND Angels have, not just the Dodgers.

Also, correction, under Steinbrenner I do not believe the Yankees had the bottom up organizational strength that the Dodgers routinely have every year now.  The Yankees were good with their minor league system (I remember we got JT Snow in a trade with the Yankees back in the day), but the Dodgers have taken it to another level.

If the priority was there on the baseball side, I don't see why Arte can't do the same.  It is not like Arte is a poor baseball owner in some small town.

 

[Jay]

Arte Moreno has an inferior product, period.

 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

15 minutes ago, JVel17 said:

I agree to the extent that the Dodgers have a buttwad of money.

However, if you read the Baseball America article, there is a lot more the Dodgers are doing other than throwing their wad of money at free agents for the major league roster.  It has to do with creating a foundation for your whole baseball organization that later churns out more highly regarded young players year after year than most other organizations.  This is separate from throwing money at free agents for your Major League roster.

Also, doesn't Arte also have a buttwad of money?  Arte is afterall a multibillionaire and the Angels have a TV deal that creates a LOT of revenue.

Basically, it would be like running your organization from the bottom up in a similar fashion to the  Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays, except with the additional buttwad of money that would allow the team to consistently go after high priced free agents (that Oakland and TB don't have the financial wherewithal like the Dodgers and Angels).  This should be a luxury the Dodgers AND Angels have, not just the Dodgers.

Also, correction, under Steinbrenner I do not believe the Yankees had the bottom up organizational strength that the Dodgers routinely have every year now.  The Yankees were good with their minor league system (I remember we got JT Snow in a trade with the Yankees back in the day), but the Dodgers have taken it to another level.

If the priority was there on the baseball side, I don't see why Arte can't do the same.  It is not like Arte is a poor baseball owner in some small town.

 

The cash advantage goes far beyond free agency. It funds the other advantages that you list. If I had basically unlimited money, I could probably put together a pretty dominant baseball operation. It's fair to say that Moreno does not have the cash at his disposal that the Dodgers do. Not even close. His "LA" rebranding of the Angels was a move to close the gap, IMO, but it didn't help.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Vegas Halo Fan

[Docwaukee]

24 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, since I am basically interrupting right here. The Dodgers are not superior in every way to every other organization, and they have not cornered the market on any given strategy. They have a buttwad of money and they throw it around liberally. They are to the game right now what the Yankees were during the era of Steinbrenner. They can afford to make mistakes, because they just cast the bad money off and spend more. No other club can do that at the level that they do. Having more money that everyone else allows you the luxury of adding multiple levels of administration and so forth. It doesn't make you better at the job.

you should read the article.  They do have greater financial resources, but it's how they've chosen to allocate and organize those resources.  They're not throwing money around like idiots.  

[Docwaukee]

23 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

The cash advantage goes far beyond free agency. It funds the other advantages that you list. If I had basically unlimited money, I could probably put together a pretty dominant baseball operation. It's fair to say that Moreno does not have the cash at his disposal that the Dodgers do. Not even close. His "LA" rebranding of the Angels was a move to close the gap, IMO, but it didn't help.

The Rays are well known to have one of the largest scouting and development budgets.   To have a huge budget on that side is like exchanging a Matt Harvey contract for development instead.  In other words, the allocation of resources to this segment of the game is pretty easily funded and the teams that seem to do it well generally find their way to the top.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, TempeAngel said:

 

It is ok to love the Angels and also critique them.

 

This.

Obviously nobody wants to come on here and read negative everyday. That said, there isn't a whole lot of positive to talk about right now. Both in the current and new term.

You'd hope everyone who posts can see big picture. And you roll your eyes when the ultra negative people don't look at things like injuries, change of personel, etc etc. 

But as of right now there's no reason not to be deflated. And the org isn't in any place to not wear it. We dug our own hole, so to speak.

There is hope. Some of the young pitching is really interesting. And the team has money. And Moreno has been embarrassed. So hopefully we see a seismic shift going forward. And people give credit where it's due

But they need to do better first.

[JVel17]

1 hour ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

The cash advantage goes far beyond free agency. It funds the other advantages that you list. If I had basically unlimited money, I could probably put together a pretty dominant baseball operation. It's fair to say that Moreno does not have the cash at his disposal that the Dodgers do. Not even close. His "LA" rebranding of the Angels was a move to close the gap, IMO, but it didn't help.

It is a matter of priority.

The Angels have more financial wherewithal than Oakland, TB, Seattle, etc.  These teams have better organization depth than Arte's Angels year after year.  In the context of organizational structure and priorities as defined by the BA article, the Angels should be able to do at least as well as these, but with even more financial resources to add selective high price free agent signings.

Arte having less money than the Dodgers is a excuse/copout.  He has the financial ability (and revenue from his TV deal) to do a lot more than he is doing as relating to what is noted in the BA article that the Dodgers are doing.

Arte is basically a carbon copy of how Gene Autry ran the team when he was owner.

[TempeAngel]

2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

This.

Obviously nobody wants to come on here and read negative everyday. That said, there isn't a whole lot of positive to talk about right now. Both in the current and new term.

You'd hope everyone who posts can see big picture. And you roll your eyes when the ultra negative people don't look at things like injuries, change of personel, etc etc. 

But as of right now there's no reason not to be deflated. And the org isn't in any place to not wear it. We dug our own hole, so to speak.

There is hope. Some of the young pitching is really interesting. And the team has money. And Moreno has been embarrassed. So hopefully we see a seismic shift going forward. And people give credit where it's due

But they need to do better first.

This is a top 10 all time post in my opinion. Perfect balance.

[TempeAngel]

2 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

you should read the article.  They do have greater financial resources, but it's how they've chosen to allocate and organize those resources.  They're not throwing money around like idiots.  

Sure. And Arte has the money and will spend it on the flashy player. But what is Arte doing to successfully build an organization?

[Docwaukee]

12 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

Sure. And Arte has the money and will spend it on the flashy player. But what is Arte doing to successfully build an organization?

Not much in the way I'd like to see him do it.   The year to year focus on only the major league club is why they are failing.  

Arte isn't primarily responsible for the individual players that go on the roster but tasking his last four GM's with the philosophy of keeping the major league club competitive has resulted in failure by all of them.  Along with the failure of the scouting and development departments which, my many accounts are run bare bones with little commitment and resources allocated.  

The angels haven't been trying to get blood from a turnip the last 12 years.  They've been trying to get it out of like 6 turnips.  Every year.  They just can't seem to fathom that not only can't you get it from 1, but double and tripling and quadrupling down on trying to do so is even more catastrophic.  

But, as I've said, it's too late.  To have done this the right way and have it working now would have meant making the commitment years ago.  Now they have to figure out how to turn the major league club around in spite of it.  

The one area where Minasian has shown promise is at doing what Jerry tried to do in grabbing players from the draft that are potentially in close proximity to the majors.  But the timing is still off and they're gonna have to expend some of those assets now in order to acquire players that fit with the current window.  

Because, realistically, as good as the AA team is right now, those guys aren't going to contribute at the level necessary to improve the major league club next year or probably even the year after.  

[JVel17]

3 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

The Rays are well known to have one of the largest scouting and development budgets.   To have a huge budget on that side is like exchanging a Matt Harvey contract for development instead.  In other words, the allocation of resources to this segment of the game is pretty easily funded and the teams that seem to do it well generally find their way to the top.  

Exactly.

It didn't take much $ for the small market TB Rays to have a great minor league operation and win 90+ games 5 out of 6 years from 2008-2013.  Then in 2014, the Dodgers hired the Rays' Andrew Friedman to run baseball operations.

What did the Dodgers want Mr. Friedman to do?  To build the Dodgers baseball operation from the ground up to be like the small market Rays.  The only difference between TB Rays and Dodgers under Friedman is the Dodgers have much more $ to throw at free agents.

What would the Rays back then have been like with the Dodgers $ resources for FAs?  Well, they would be like the new Dodgers.

The BA article is basically describing what a well run organization looks like from the ground up (like the Rays 10-15 years ago and Dodgers now) that any of the MLB clubs can do and does not require the Dodgers buttwad of cash to accomplish.

The Angels under Arte have significantly more $ resources than a small market team such as the Rays.

This is why this is not a matter of Arte's financial resources, but rather a matter of Arte's priorities.

Huge FA contracts like Arte has given out repeatedly dwarfs the $ spent by small market teams to have what the BA article describes.

The Dodgers "secret formula" is basically to build the organization from the ground up like a small market team, which would help them have the high quantity/quality of young talent like small market teams have (to play or trade), but with the additional $ to be able to spend on high price FA when needed (unlike small market teams).

Arte has shown a penchant for spending big bucks on FA (like the Dodgers/Yankees), but not spending the little bucks on building a healthy baseball organization like some of the smart small market teams do (Rays) and also some large market teams do (Dodgers).

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

What's crazy is that I'm sure it's not as simple as I'm making it, I'm sure there's a ton of additional parts, but that Friedman is essentially the biggest free agent signing anyone has made in a decade.

I'd love to meet him or someone similar, and just pick their brain. What's the most important thing? What's the most common red flag? When do you cut bait? Etc etc.

I hate the Dodgers as much as anybody else. But credit where it's due. Their ability to still develop front line talent with late draft picks is pretty mindblowing. 

[Tank]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

What's crazy is that I'm sure it's not as simple as I'm making it, I'm sure there's a ton of additional parts, but that Friedman is essentially the biggest free agent signing anyone has made in a decade.

I'd love to meet him or someone similar, and just pick their brain. What's the most important thing? What's the most common red flag? When do you cut bait? Etc etc.

I hate the Dodgers as much as anybody else. But credit where it's due. Their ability to still develop front line talent with late draft picks is pretty mindblowing. 

i have crazy respect for how they continually seem to find and develop good players. there doesn't seem to be any end in sight to their pipeline these days. i wish we had that kind of success here.

[JVel17]

Arte looking into potentially selling the team:

ESPN: Los Angeles Angels owner Arte Moreno exploring possible sale of team.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34447735/los-angeles-angels-owner-arte-moreno-exploring-possible-sale-team

[Taylor]

5 minutes ago, JVel17 said:

Arte looking into potentially selling the team:

ESPN: Los Angeles Angels owner Arte Moreno exploring possible sale of team.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34447735/los-angeles-angels-owner-arte-moreno-exploring-possible-sale-team

Woah, this is big. Big enough for its own thread(s).

[failos]

8 minutes ago, JVel17 said:

Arte looking into potentially selling the team:

ESPN: Los Angeles Angels owner Arte Moreno exploring possible sale of team.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34447735/los-angeles-angels-owner-arte-moreno-exploring-possible-sale-team

Damn, thanks for sharing

[UndertheHalo]

Haha 

[JVel17]

41 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Woah, this is big. Big enough for its own thread(s).

You are correct.  Sorry.

[Taylor]

10 minutes ago, JVel17 said:

You are correct.  Sorry.

Haha, just giving you a hard time. It definitely belongs in this thread as well. 

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, JVel17 said:

Arte looking into potentially selling the team:

ESPN: Los Angeles Angels owner Arte Moreno exploring possible sale of team.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34447735/los-angeles-angels-owner-arte-moreno-exploring-possible-sale-team

 

This is obviously fake news.

[arch stanton]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:40 AM, tdawg87 said:

Come on.

He's not wrong

[Docwaukee]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:32 PM, ten ocho recon scout said:

What's crazy is that I'm sure it's not as simple as I'm making it, I'm sure there's a ton of additional parts, but that Friedman is essentially the biggest free agent signing anyone has made in a decade.

I'd love to meet him or someone similar, and just pick their brain. What's the most important thing? What's the most common red flag? When do you cut bait? Etc etc.

I hate the Dodgers as much as anybody else. But credit where it's due. Their ability to still develop front line talent with late draft picks is pretty mindblowing. 

his kid and my niece were on the same little league team.  My BIL called me and was like 'dude!'

I asked him what they talked about and he said he was just super chill.