Would you have preferred we went full rebuild once Eppler was hired?

[mmc]

When we hired Eppler, we started to focus on fixing our god awful farm system, though the team was never going to do a full-scale rebuild because Arte would never have allowed it.  My question is, looking at how the last 4 seasons have gone in hindsight, would you have preferred we go with a full rebuild after 2015 (trading or keeping Trout is a whole other debate), or do you still believe trying to rebuild on the fly was the way to go?

[Taylor]

No.

[T.G.]

[Stradling]

The difference between a complete rebuild and the current rebuild is trading Trout.   So no.  

[mmc]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

The difference between a complete rebuild and the current rebuild is trading Trout.   So no.  

No it isn't.  If we were to go full rebuild after 2015, guys like Street, Bedrosian, Richards, Santiago, Smith, Weaver, Iannetta, Aybar, and Calhoun would all go on the trading block.  I'm not sure that this would've been the right decision, or if we'd be in a better place now having done this, but I think it's worth questioning.

[Justin]

No. Full rebuild is a euphemism for tanking. I have not enjoyed watching the Astros, Cubs, Marlins, or A's do it and I would have hated watching the Angels do it. 

[DMVol]

17 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

No it isn't.  If we were to go full rebuild after 2015, guys like Street, Bedrosian, Richards, Santiago, Smith, Weaver, Iannetta, Aybar, and Calhoun would all go on the trading block.  I'm not sure that this would've been the right decision, or if we'd be in a better place now having done this, but I think it's worth questioning.

None of those guys, with the exception of a healthy Richards, would have brought much back....Outside of Trout, we didn't have anybody to bring back a good package...

[mulwin444]

Going 2016, you had the beginning of a solid staff - Richards coming off a 200+ IP season, Santiago 105 ERA+ in 180 IP, Heaney putting up 108 ERA+ in 105 IP through 18 starts, and a back of the rotation of Shoemaker, Weaver (last season of his contract), and Tropeano with Skaggs coming back at some point. 

Then, Richards, Heaney, and Tropeano all went down to elbow injuries, Skaggs only could contribute 10 starts, Weaver fell completely off a cliff...it got desperate...so desperate in fact that we actually had Lincecum in the rotation.  The bullpen was hit as well with Street complete decline and a promising season by Bedrosian but short by a groin injury.

By the time 2017 rolled around, who were Angels tradeable assets that would bring something consequential back? Trout, Simmons (who they just traded for that winter),...maybe Calhoun and Cron.

Fact was they didn't have much to trade...either from a 30th ranked minor league system to improve the team or from the MLB team to replenish the minor leagues.

Just look at that 2017 team...how did they win 80 games? 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAA/2017.shtml

Add to that two more SP injuries in Meyer (with shoulder injury he'd retire from) and Shoemaker (with a forearm injury that knocked him out for 2 seasons), and Skaggs shoulder inflammation.  

Again, the only guy able to bring back anything was Trout.  

So, if you tank, maybe Trout doesn't re-sign with the Angels, maybe Shohei doesn't sign either, maybe the draft position change means they select someone different than Jo Adell and...what if, what if...

For what it's worth, this is a "devil we know" in terms of possible outcomes with no guarantee it could have gotten better if they gutted the roster on purpose. 

 

 

[T.G.]

2 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Going 2016, you had the beginning of a solid staff - Richards coming off a 200+ IP season, Santiago 105 ERA+ in 180 IP, Heaney putting up 108 ERA+ in 105 IP through 18 starts, and a back of the rotation of Shoemaker, Weaver (last season of his contract), and Tropeano with Skaggs coming back at some point. 

Then, Richards, Heaney, and Tropeano all went down to elbow injuries, Skaggs only could contribute 10 starts, Weaver fell completely off a cliff...it got desperate...so desperate in fact that we actually had Lincecum in the rotation.  The bullpen was hit as well with Street complete decline and a promising season by Bedrosian but short by a groin injury.

By the time 2017 rolled around, who were Angels tradeable assets that would bring something consequential back? Trout, Simmons (who they just traded for that winter),...maybe Calhoun and Cron.

Fact was they didn't have much to trade...either from a 30th ranked minor league system to improve the team or from the MLB team to replenish the minor leagues.

Just look at that 2017 team...how did they win 80 games? 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAA/2017.shtml

Add to that two more SP injuries in Meyer (with shoulder injury he'd retire from) and Shoemaker (with a forearm injury that knocked him out for 2 seasons), and Skaggs shoulder inflammation.  

Again, the only guy able to bring back anything was Trout.  

So, if you tank, maybe Trout doesn't re-sign with the Angels, maybe Shohei doesn't sign either, maybe the draft position change means they select someone different than Jo Adell and...what if, what if...

For what it's worth, this is a "devil we know" in terms of possible outcomes with no guarantee it could have gotten better if they gutted the roster on purpose. 

 

 

[Puget Sound Angel]

Nah. As long as you had Trout, you had no choice but to go for it. Each year.

Besides rebuilding is not some secret cure. It does not always work and the process is long and slow, upwards of 5-6 years. Unless you are the stupid Mariners and thing you can gut everything and contend within two years. 

[Bronson]

Stick to twitter posts.

[mmc]

2 hours ago, SoPas Angel said:

No. Full rebuild is a euphemism for tanking. I have not enjoyed watching the Astros, Cubs, Marlins, or A's do it and I would have hated watching the Angels do it. 

Well 2 of these teams won the World Series and another one is better than the Angels so that’s not really the best counter-argument

[T.G.]

Circular reasoning.

[Angelsjunky]

@mulwin444 said it well. Hindsight, and all. The Angels had a nice, young rotation and had the worst possible luck. No way to account for that.

[rafibomb]

Would a full rebuild and trading everyone not named Trout have affected his decision to sign an extension? No superstar wants to be a part of a full rebuilding team.

[Justin]

7 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Well 2 of these teams won the World Series and another one is better than the Angels so that’s not really the best counter-argument

If you're cool with watching your favorite team choose not to compete and intentionally finish in last place multiple years in a row for the chance at winning a World Series down the road, that's a valid opinion. But I would not be cool with it.

The Angels have made some bad decisions over the last decade, but they have always tried to compete. I'd much rather my favorite team do that than tank like the Astros, Cubs, or A's, even if they are all better than the Angels at the moment.

[mmc]

1 minute ago, SoPas Angel said:

If you're cool with watching your favorite team choose not to compete and intentionally finish in last place multiple years in a row for the chance at winning a World Series down the road, that's a valid opinion. But I would not be cool with it.

The Angels have made some bad decisions over the last decade, but they have always tried to compete. I'd much rather my favorite team do that that does that than tank like the Astros, Cubs, or A's, even if they are all better than the Angels at the moment.

I want the Angels to be in the best position to win the World Series.  If bottoming out for a few years would've put us in that position, I'd be all for it.  Like I said, I'm not certain that rebuilding after 2015 was a good idea.  I just think it's a possibility.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, mymerlincat said:

When we hired Eppler, we started to focus on fixing our god awful farm system, though the team was never going to do a full-scale rebuild because Arte would never have allowed it.  My question is, looking at how the last 4 seasons have gone in hindsight, would you have preferred we go with a full rebuild after 2015 (trading or keeping Trout is a whole other debate), or do you still believe trying to rebuild on the fly was the way to go?

I get you're asking a hypothetical question but, the reality is you stated the reason why it was never an option.   Arte.   More importantly -- the typical rebuild is basically built on the sell off of assets.   

All of our assets were either crappy, or hurt.    All the pitchers were coming off injuries and would have been sell low types.   The only position player of any sort of value besides Trout was Calhoun and possibly Cron -- this is of course assuming we had never traded for Simmons.     
Cron was DFA'd twice after we traded him for Rengifo which at this point has to be viewed as a win for us.
The best catcher on hand when Eppler got here was Carlos Perez.  He's been DFA'd how many times now by how many teams?
The best 2B on hand was Giovatella -- dude got DFAd and nobody gave him anything other than a minor league deal.
We had Aybar on a one year deal
No 3B under contract.  
No LF under contract.
Trout
Calhoun.

The RP was LOL.

Eppler basically DID do a complete rebuild.     

What is it YOU would have done differently.  How would you have been able to turn what we had into actual assets?

[T.G.]

@Inside Pitch does it again...

Edited March 2, 2020 by True Grich

[Justin]

2 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

I want the Angels to be in the best position to win the World Series.  If bottoming out for a few years would've put us in that position, I'd be all for it.  

That's a valid opinion, and one a lot of people share.

Personally, I love that at the start of every season for the last 15+ years, with the sole exception of 2017, I felt optimism that the Angels could make the postseason. The idea of bottoming out and me having to say "Okay, the Angels have no chance this season, and probably not next season either, but hopefully in a few years they will be awesome"... that's just not what I want out of baseball.

[mmc]

1 minute ago, SoPas Angel said:

That's a valid opinion, and one a lot of people share.

Personally, I love that at the start of every season for the last 15+ years, with the sole exception of 2017, I felt optimism that the Angels could make the postseason. The idea of bottoming out and me having to say "Okay, the Angels have no chance this season, and probably not next season either, but hopefully in a few years they will be awesome"... that's just not what I want out of baseball.

I mean I haven't felt that way since before the 2016 season but I get your point.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, mymerlincat said:

No it isn't.  If we were to go full rebuild after 2015, guys like Street, Bedrosian, Richards, Santiago, Smith, Weaver, Iannetta, Aybar, and Calhoun would all go on the trading block.  I'm not sure that this would've been the right decision, or if we'd be in a better place now having done this, but I think it's worth questioning.

Steet --  Maybe -- he had yet to implode but was in the first year of his new deal..  But a trade candidate sure.
Bedrosian --  5.40 ERA, drop in velocity, questions if he was ever going to rebound.
Ianetta -- wasn't an Angel after 2015...  You cant trade someone not on your team
Aybar was traded at the deadline by Atlanta -- they got an old minor league catcher and a 36 year old middle IFer
Richards broke down in April.   He would have needed to be traded during the offseason.   So that's a maybe.
Santiago -- maybe someone would have ignored his 4.77 FIP in 2015 and given up something for him, maybe you can point to a team with prospects and dumb enough to do that
Weaver was owed 20 mil and coming off a season with declining velo and an ERA near 5.00

What exactly do you think you would have been able to get for those guys?

[Inside Pitch]

There have been a ton of mistakes along the way -- but nothing was more damaging than how poorly the farm was managed after Stoneman left.   

The Baldoquin decision was also a lot more impactful than people realize regardless of whether or not Vlad Jr had ever been born.   They basically took themselves out of the easiest cheapest source of talent available for  a guy that can't get out of AA.  Had Eppler had the minor league resources Dipoto had on hand (beyond Trout), when he arrived this team is in a much better place and even then -- there would have been black holes left and right.   I mean, let's be real -- with the exception of Segura, most of those guys were still here when Eppler arrived.

It's not even worth blaming JD or anyone anymore .   The sad reality is that the lack of a farm system was the single most detrimental thing to happen to this team.

[Blarg]

2 hours ago, mymerlincat said:

No it isn't.  If we were to go full rebuild after 2015, guys like Street, Bedrosian, Richards, Santiago, Smith, Weaver, Iannetta, Aybar, and Calhoun would all go on the trading block.  I'm not sure that this would've been the right decision, or if we'd be in a better place now having done this, but I think it's worth questioning.

Let's go through that list.

Street was done by the time Eppler arrived.

Bedrosian had an ERA of 6.52 in 2014 and 5.40 in 2015. He had no sell-able value 

Richards was at the peak of his game, Weaver at the end of his. So you have one pitcher.

Ianetta followed Dipoto to Seattle as a free agent

Santiago was traded in 2016 along with Joe Smith.

Aybar was traded for Simmons.

Calhoun had a down year in 2015 but still could have been offered.

So of your list there is really only two guys that would have been of any value to other teams that were not already traded. 

 

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

38 minutes ago, Bronson said:

Stick to twitter posts.

There's no need for this.   He not an Eppler fan but he isn't really faulting the team, he's just asking for opinions.  Whether or not the team would be better off right now is a decent enough conversation.