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Pitch Sequence or White?


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Personally i would say its both, But i'd put more blame on the Pitch Sequence, we lead the league in hits and Home runs allowed on 0-2 pitches.  While both Gubi and Victor have stated how Obvious the pitch sequence are many time on air; they'll say out pitcher's will go up in the zone followed by a breaking ball down, and looking at the game's it's been the same sequences most of the time.  

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Nope. Good pitchers execute pitches. Bad pitchers run up pitch counts and throw balls so far out of the zone they should all be counted as wild pitches.

We have a bunch of bad pitchers. Either by training or incompetence, it really doesn't matter, they suck at their craft. One of the few guys I respect is Noe Ramirez that can't throw a baseball harder than 90 mph and is forced to pitch not just let go of a 95-100 fastball and hope no one hits it. We have a bunch of guys that can throw 95 but can't control their velocity nor command secondary pitches. 

It's all about the pitcher quality. Not sequences or spin rates but the guy on the mound and if he can execute 4 pitches in a row to get a batter out instead of nothing but 3-2 counts all game. 

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Eppler has addressed a lot of needs but he’s on a restricted budget. Pujols, Trout and Upton are very expensive. We didn’t have Ohtani this season and the loss of Skaggs was devastating. The jury is still out on Barria, Canning and Suarez. I seriously doubt that Arte is going to approve another $200M contract for one starting pitcher. I think Eppler will look to fill 2 other starting spots with the hopes that Ohtani will return 100%.

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31 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Nope. Good pitchers execute pitches. Bad pitchers run up pitch counts and throw balls so far out of the zone they should all be counted as wild pitches.

We have a bunch of bad pitchers. Either by training or incompetence, it really doesn't matter, they suck at their craft. One of the few guys I respect is Noe Ramirez that can't throw a baseball harder than 90 mph and is forced to pitch not just let go of a 95-100 fastball and hope no one hits it. We have a bunch of guys that can throw 95 but can't control their velocity nor command secondary pitches. 

It's all about the pitcher quality. Not sequences or spin rates but the guy on the mound and if he can execute 4 pitches in a row to get a batter out instead of nothing but 3-2 counts all game. 

Two things...

Heaney and Skaggs have both been successful in the past, and both were heralded as top prospects. Same with Canning and Suarez, who each appeared in top 100's. So the talent is there. The pitchers we've provided White with aren't any less talented than others. Quite the opposite really. But under his tutelage they have failed to do many of the basic things pitchers need to do to succeed. That's on them, as you would say.

I get the feeling that Doug White isn't necessarily someone you bring in to get the best out of a pitcher. He's the sorry of guy that could use advanced statistics to explain why a pitcher is successful, but I've seen zero evidence that he can actually develop a pitcher.

As much as we like to rag on Gubi, when you listen to the telecast, he's a wealth of knowledge and it's all based on experience. Doug White has neither but is the pitching coach. I've noticed Gubicza become increasingly critical of pitch selection lately. He's quick to clarify that the pitch used could've yielded a better result with better location, but the pitch selection is clearly raising eyebrows among an expert.

The Angels pitching is not trending in the right direction. Maybe the pitchers are having a hard time implementing what White wants, or maybe he's only successful if he gets the right sort of pitchers to work with.... Or perhaps it's as I said, he can't develop as much as he can analyze pitchers...

I don't know. But whatever it is, it isn't working.

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21 hours ago, Blarg said:

Nope. Good pitchers execute pitches. Bad pitchers run up pitch counts and throw balls so far out of the zone they should all be counted as wild pitches.

We have a bunch of bad pitchers. Either by training or incompetence, it really doesn't matter, they suck at their craft. One of the few guys I respect is Noe Ramirez that can't throw a baseball harder than 90 mph and is forced to pitch not just let go of a 95-100 fastball and hope no one hits it. We have a bunch of guys that can throw 95 but can't control their velocity nor command secondary pitches. 

It's all about the pitcher quality. Not sequences or spin rates but the guy on the mound and if he can execute 4 pitches in a row to get a batter out instead of nothing but 3-2 counts all game. 

Good points 

Are the Halos too focused on bringing in guys who throw 95+, and hoping to teach spin rate to them?

So far, it’s had very sporadic success, mainly with guys acquired before White arrived, Buttrey and Robles.

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21 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

Eppler has addressed a lot of needs but he’s on a restricted budget. Pujols, Trout and Upton are very expensive. We didn’t have Ohtani this season and the loss of Skaggs was devastating. The jury is still out on Barria, Canning and Suarez. I seriously doubt that Arte is going to approve another $200M contract for one starting pitcher. I think Eppler will look to fill 2 other starting spots with the hopes that Ohtani will return 100%.

I sure hope they are MUCH better than Harvey and Cahill (as a starter) proved to be.

The question is, was that all on them or some of it on Doug White?

We do need to give White the time that Bud Black was given.  It took Bud into a 3rd season to help mold the pitching staff from a mediocre one to one nearly having the lowest ERA in the AL in 2002 (.01 behind the A’th).

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39 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

I sure hope they are MUCH better than Harvey and Cahill (as a starter) proved to be.

The question is, was that all on them or some of it on Doug White?

We do need to give White the time that Bud Black was given.  It took Bud into a 3rd season to help mold the pitching staff from a mediocre one to one nearly having the lowest ERA in the AL in 2002 (.01 behind the A’th).

Ausmus is Eppler’s buddy. White is Ausmus’ buddy. They’re not going anywhere anytime soon. They’re both on the 5 year plan. 

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I think one of the reason that the Spin rate philosophy isn't working for is in the rotation is because we don't have anyone (outside of Canning) that can throw 95+ up in the Zone.  Most of our guys are in the low 90s and once that pitch get to much of the middle of plate it's hammered. While a guy like Cole who has the ability to hit 100, can get away with a few errors.

For our Bp, it working wonderful'y due to the fact we have guys that can hit 100!

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34 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I think one of the reason that the Spin rate philosophy isn't working for is in the rotation is because we don't have anyone (outside of Canning) that can throw 95+ up in the Zone.  Most of our guys are in the low 90s and once that pitch get to much of the middle of plate it's hammered. While a guy like Cole who has the ability to hit 100, can get away with a few errors.

For our Bp, it working wonderful'y due to the fact we have guys that can hit 100!

This is a great point.

With that in mind, will the pitching acquisition focus be on guys throwing 95+?   If not, then the spin teachings are likely a wasted effort. 

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52 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I think one of the reason that the Spin rate philosophy isn't working for is in the rotation is because we don't have anyone (outside of Canning) that can throw 95+ up in the Zone.  Most of our guys are in the low 90s and once that pitch get to much of the middle of plate it's hammered. While a guy like Cole who has the ability to hit 100, can get away with a few errors.

For our Bp, it working wonderful'y due to the fact we have guys that can hit 100!

yep.  mentioned this in another thread awhile back.  Doug White had Verlander, Cole and Morton.  Not every player is built to throw the four seam up in the zone.  

It just doesn't seem they're playing off each pitchers best pitch but trying to get them all to do the same thing.  

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30 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

yep.  mentioned this in another thread awhile back.  Doug White had Verlander, Cole and Morton.  Not every player is built to throw the four seam up in the zone.  

It just doesn't seem they're playing off each pitchers best pitch but trying to get them all to do the same thing.  

Check the Eppler quotes here .... https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/7/19/20700250/baseball-rarities-become-common-fastball-shift

This article has some really interesting comments from Billy as it relates to pitching and what we may want to expect moving forward.

 

Edited by Inside Pitch
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1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Check the Eppler quotes here .... https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/7/19/20700250/baseball-rarities-become-common-fastball-shift

This article has some really interesting comments from Billy as it relates to pitching and what we may want to expect moving forward.

 

Interesting because there is a quote in there that says the exact opposite of what I said.   yet the way things are being done, it doesn't seem like that's the philosophy or at least the execution doesn't mimic the philosophy.  

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27 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Interesting because there is a quote in there that says the exact opposite of what I said.   yet the way things are being done, it doesn't seem like that's the philosophy or at least the execution doesn't mimic the philosophy.  

Yep, that's why I wanted you to read it.   Reading that and watching what's been happening hasn't lined up for me either so...   I'm hoping this is a simple case of a team in transition, and that some things are taking longer to gain traction as others.  But, if we are to believe what Eppler says in that article, it's not the process but the execution that's off.

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Anyone can coach good to great pitchers! And 100mph throwers VELO cures a lot.

I've posted in other threads from pitcher specific on Cahill, BedRock's predictability, Harvey's mechanical issues, pitchers lack of repriptore, the staffs lack of getting ahead in the count early, pitch sequence, pitch counts, openers, you name it and have said the same thing as other former professional pitchers doing color commentary. 

The basics are you coach the players you are given and provide them with the tools to be successful in any sport.

If it's a player/talent issue then it's a GM issue.

If it's a mechanical it's on the pitching coach.

Sequencing it's a Manager/Pitching coach philosophy issue.

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