What if (starting pitching version)

[Docwaukee]

What if we signed Corbin for the contract that Washington gave him?  

What if we signed Keuchel at 4/75?  

There would obviously be collateral damage relative to the draft and international money.   We likely would still be short of a division contender.  

But would we be in a strong position to win a wild card spot with those two over Cahill and Harvey?  

Would you be happy with that if we were borderline for the 2nd wild card or do you think that keeping the picks and intl money plus next years flexibility gives us more options and ultimately makes us better long term?   

Would you be happy with next year's rotation of Corbin, Keuchel, and Ohtani? Plus Skaggs, Heaney and Canning?  

While I wasn't a fan of the Corbin contract, I am a fan of the player.  I don't like that contract for Keuchel but overall, that's a pretty strong rotation and bullpen to go along with a very good offense.  

[floplag]

interesting question.  I think were all a bit surprised at how well the offense has done with a few obvious exceptions but if you look at the game logs for Harvey and Cahill, who i assume would be the ones not signed in the hypothetical, you have to kind of assume we would be in the mix right now had we gone that direction. 

The following is hardly scientific or any guarantee bit i took a look at the gome logs for the 2 dodo birds and In Cahills starts where he has given up 4 or more earned runs, the club is 1-6, now to be fair in a couple of those we really didnt score either but he also got a relatively cheap win as well so lets just average that out and say if that was Corbin in that spot we have 3-4 more wins.   Harvey's was similar with lower lows but he is 1-4 when giving up 4 or more and the one win was an 11-8 affair where he gave up 6.  You gotta figure if that was lets say Kuechel we pick up at least another 2 wins. 

So my completely non scientific guesswork here projects we have at least 5 more wins if we had done that which basically swaps up with Oak in the division and would put us tied with Bos for the second wild card today.. 

[Angel Oracle]

Because Corbin only wanted to go back East, and because there's no way I pay Keuchel close to $20 million/season for 3-4 seasons, I'm okay with not signing either of them.

I just don't get why Harvey and Cahill are the worst that they've ever been so far in 2019.   Is it Doug White useless?     Is it a fluke?    Injuries?

Because Simba's serious ankle injury leaves me doubting that re-signing him long term is the way to go, they HAVE to sign either Cole after this season or Bauer after the 2020 season.   No way around it!   Have to hope that someone can take over SS by 2021.

[floplag]

I'm actually OK with us signing none of them pitching wise or even not doing so again for next season.  Its fun to speculate and such but really, it comes down to priorities.

If we cant someone put together a good to better than good rotation of of this list, were in deeper shit than any ace would help...
Ohtani
Skaggs
Heaney
Tropeano
Canning
Suarez
Pena
Ramirez
Sandoval
Barria
10 legit options for the 20 rotation. And i may still be missing one or two.  Probably no Cy Young winner in the bunch but thats true of most teams. 

Would a true ace help, of course, so would a true C/3B.  Were going to have to pick our battle there and i see a lot of depth/options for the rotations and few at those offensive spots. 

[Second Base]

Both were risks.  Corbin would've been a solid signing.  Keuchel too, but it would hurt the long term outlook of the ball club.  If we had both over Harvey and Cahill, I imagine this team would probably a few games better than they are already.

With Corbin and Keuchel, the Angels are a .500 team, maybe a little better, so at this point, they'd still be trailing the A's, Rays and Sox for two wild card spots.  The A's are on a heater but aren't a good team, so essentially, you'd be wagering the Angels outplay the Red Sox going forward because they'd have a similar record right now, which isn't a good wager to take, or that they'd significantly outplay the Rays which isn't going to happen. 

So it doesn't look like it would've made a difference this year.  And going forward, the Angels wouldn't have the international funds or first round pick they're going to have.  So long term, it wouldn't have helped. 

Either way, the Angels aren't a playoff team.  But with Harvey and Cahill, they're a non-playoff team with potentially something to sell off at the deadline (if we convert them to relief, which we should), and we'll have our draft picks and international funds. 

[Docwaukee]

20 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Both were risks.  Corbin would've been a solid signing.  Keuchel too, but it would hurt the long term outlook of the ball club.  If we had both over Harvey and Cahill, I imagine this team would probably a few games better than they are already.

With Corbin and Keuchel, the Angels are a .500 team, maybe a little better, so at this point, they'd still be trailing the A's, Rays and Sox for two wild card spots.  The A's are on a heater but aren't a good team, so essentially, you'd be wagering the Angels outplay the Red Sox going forward because they'd have a similar record right now, which isn't a good wager to take, or that they'd significantly outplay the Rays which isn't going to happen. 

So it doesn't look like it would've made a difference this year.  And going forward, the Angels wouldn't have the international funds or first round pick they're going to have.  So long term, it wouldn't have helped. 

Either way, the Angels aren't a playoff team.  But with Harvey and Cahill, they're a non-playoff team with potentially something to sell off at the deadline (if we convert them to relief, which we should), and we'll have our draft picks and international funds. 

This is what I am wondering and I'm not so sure.  

[eligrba]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

I'm actually OK with us signing none of them pitching wise or even not doing so again for next season.  Its fun to speculate and such but really, it comes down to priorities.

If we cant someone put together a good to better than good rotation of of this list, were in deeper shit than any ace would help...
Ohtani
Skaggs
Heaney
Tropeano
Canning
Suarez
Pena
Ramirez
Sandoval
Barria
10 legit options for the 20 rotation. And i may still be missing one or two.  Probably no Cy Young winner in the bunch but thats true of most teams. 

Would a true ace help, of course, so would a true C/3B.  Were going to have to pick our battle there and i see a lot of depth/options for the rotations and few at those offensive spots. 

I agree.

Average starting pitching + lock down bullpen + above average offense gets you to World Series contention.

[eligrba]

The past few years seem like a Wack-a-Mole game.  This year's starting pitching simply replaced previous positional black holes filled by shitty signings or trades.

[NJHalo]

Would signing both of these guys have made Arte a little gun-shy about spending too much money, and perhaps keep him from opening up the vault for Trout's extension? It may not have been an either/or situation, but that's a shitload of money to spend in one offseason on three guys.

 Of course I would like to have both guys in the rotation short term, but I think in the long run it will prove to be smart to have not committed long term to those guys. 

[Second Base]

42 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

This is what I am wondering and I'm not so sure.  

I don't think the logic of Harvey, Cahill and Allen was wrong.  It's brilliant even.  But the practice of it, has been absolutely horrendous. 

[Pancake Bear]

I think we would’ve had to pay more than what Corbin took to lure him back west. 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

I agree.

Average starting pitching + lock down bullpen + above average offense gets you to World Series contention.

i think thats the only path open to us right now, were not remaking the entire rotation nor should we

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, eligrba said:

The past few years seem like a Wack-a-Mole game.  This year's starting pitching simply replaced previous positional black holes filled by shitty signings or trades.

Feel free to assume that I will be celebrating, when this isn't a yearly thing any more. 

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

Feel free to assume that I will be celebrating, when this isn't a yearly thing any more. 

The only thing we assume with you is that you yell at clouds and ask questions of people who are never here to answer them.

[Angel Oracle]

3 minutes ago, True Grich said:

The only thing we assume with you is that you yell at clouds and ask questions of people who are never here to answer them.

But it makes things more lively in struggling times.   

How dare those guys not be able to answer my questions. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 hours ago, floplag said:

I'm actually OK with us signing none of them pitching wise or even not doing so again for next season.  Its fun to speculate and such but really, it comes down to priorities.

If we cant someone put together a good to better than good rotation of of this list, were in deeper shit than any ace would help...
Ohtani
Skaggs
Heaney
Tropeano
Canning
Suarez
Pena
Ramirez
Sandoval
Barria
10 legit options for the 20 rotation. And i may still be missing one or two.  Probably no Cy Young winner in the bunch but thats true of most teams. 

Would a true ace help, of course, so would a true C/3B.  Were going to have to pick our battle there and i see a lot of depth/options for the rotations and few at those offensive spots. 

Funny I read that list of 10 and instantly conclude the Angels desperately need a starter.

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

But it makes things more lively in struggling times. 

That's a matter of opinion.  And one I don't necessarily share with you. 

[floplag]

23 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Funny I read that list of 10 and instantly conclude the Angels desperately need a starter.

They could have one of the great Braves rotations and youd be unhappy with the 5th starter though.  The game is evolving, our views need to as well.  Some are still stuck on starting pitching above all else, at this point im on the "many says to skin the proverbial cat" train.  
Dont get me wrong youre not out of line in thinking that but it comes down to priorities, we have a crap tron of SP depth, and virtually nothing in other places.  Its a luxury. 

[Dtwncbad]

25 minutes ago, floplag said:

They could have one of the great Braves rotations and youd be unhappy with the 5th starter though.  The game is evolving, our views need to as well.  Some are still stuck on starting pitching above all else, at this point im on the "many says to skin the proverbial cat" train.  
Dont get me wrong youre not out of line in thinking that but it comes down to priorities, we have a crap tron of SP depth, and virtually nothing in other places.  Its a luxury. 

Fiction.

[floplag]

21 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Fiction.

All im saying is that you are one of the pitching first guys. 
The thing about that is that there anent enough aces left in the league to build rotations like that any more.  Even if you had that one true ace, you still have to play the other 4 or 5 days.  i would rather  have 5 good guys, than an ace, a couple good ones, and a back end full of question marks. 
To me that what we should have with that list. 

[Angel Oracle]

25 minutes ago, floplag said:

All im saying is that you are one of the pitching first guys. 
The thing about that is that there anent enough aces left in the league to build rotations like that any more.  Even if you had that one true ace, you still have to play the other 4 or 5 days.  i would rather  have 5 good guys, than an ace, a couple good ones, and a back end full of question marks. 
To me that what we should have with that list. 

2002 Halos nod heads in approval.

[Docwaukee]

44 minutes ago, floplag said:

All im saying is that you are one of the pitching first guys. 
The thing about that is that there anent enough aces left in the league to build rotations like that any more.  Even if you had that one true ace, you still have to play the other 4 or 5 days.  i would rather  have 5 good guys, than an ace, a couple good ones, and a back end full of question marks. 
To me that what we should have with that list. 

I'd rather have two aces and 3-4 good ones.  That's feasible next year with Ohtani, a FA, and that list of 10 you mentioned.  

[floplag]

47 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I'd rather have two aces and 3-4 good ones.  That's feasible next year with Ohtani, a FA, and that list of 10 you mentioned.  

in a vacuum yes, is it feasible after signing the spots we have no depth on is the better question i think.   Like i said im not opposed, i just dont see it as priority #1 given what we currently have when the depth chart at other important spots doesnt exist really.  If we can get that, plus a legit C and 3B, bring it on im game, i just dont see how that fits in the money we will have so i would put it elsewhere.
all of that of course i assuming Lucroy and LaStella continue to be productive and will want to and like should get paid more than we might be willing if they even make it past the trade deadline in Halo red.   

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

in a vacuum yes, is it feasible after signing the spots we have no depth on is the better question i think.   Like i said im not opposed, i just dont see it as priority #1 given what we currently have when the depth chart at other important spots doesnt exist really.  If we can get that, plus a legit C and 3B, bring it on im game, i just dont see how that fits in the money we will have so i would put it elsewhere.
all of that of course i assuming Lucroy and LaStella continue to be productive and will want to and like should get paid more than we might be willing if they even make it past the trade deadline in Halo red.   

that's actually a way to create depth and trade from a position of strength.  It's all about what becomes available via trade or FA.  Adding a guy like Cole (which I believe we have the money for) allows you to move a guy like Skaggs, Heaney, Barria, or pitching prospects for a C.  La Stella is controlled for another year.  We actually have some depth to cover 3b.  Maybe not an an all star level, but between Fletch, La Stella, Rengifo, Ward, Thaiss and Rojas we should be fine.  Outside of C, I don't see Billy making major moves to improve the offense.   Or maybe they put that money toward a guy like Rendon and do as you mentioned.  

I see more options on the SP side than at 3b/C on the FA market for next year but you just never know how it's going to play out till you get there.  

[floplag]

1 minute ago, Dochalo said:

that's actually a way to create depth and trade from a position of strength.  It's all about what becomes available via trade or FA.  Adding a guy like Cole (which I believe we have the money for) allows you to move a guy like Skaggs, Heaney, Barria, or pitching prospects for a C.  La Stella is controlled for another year.  We actually have some depth to cover 3b.  Maybe not an an all star level, but between Fletch, La Stella, Rengifo, Ward, Thaiss and Rojas we should be fine.  Outside of C, I don't see Billy making major moves to improve the offense.   Or maybe they put that money toward a guy like Rendon and do as you mentioned.  

I see more options on the SP side than at 3b/C on the FA market for next year but you just never know how it's going to play out till you get there.  

Of course, im just looking at our most glaring holes as a higher priority is all