Pitch Counts

[mancini79]

I believe it's a stat that is being mismanaged. I hate that a pitcher's role is limited by their number of pitches. Growing up a pitcher's performance was judged by their performance on the mound. If they looked gassed or missing their spots, then they were taken out. Not because they hit 100 pitches. The PC is now consuming a pitcher's role. It's a stat that is now being followed inning by inning. A pitcher can be 3 innings in with 50+ pitches and the focus turns to the amount of pitches. He could be throwing a shutout with 5 k's but the concern is if he could last til the 6th. Who cares if he's making the outs.

 

If a pitcher has 30 pitches and giving up tons of runs, then they pull them out. But if they have 100+ pitches and allow a runner or two, then they pull him. Doesn't make sense to me. If a pitcher is coming off rehab, then the PC is a legit concern.

[Scott34]

We need a revolutionary; a free-thinking manager.  Not limited to the Angels, just someone who dares to try something new in baseball.

 

Why do we still have pitching roles? It's hideous and outdated.  Closers should not exist.  Nor should 7th, 8th or mop up men.

[Willy J.]

I'm guessing we have Dusty Baker to thank for the pitch count mania because of the way he over-used the young Cubs pitchers back in the day.

 

 

I understand being cautious with a young pitcher. . but it's nonsense with the more experienced guys.

[nando714]

We need to "stretch" these guys out

[Willy J.]

We need to "stretch" these guys out

 

It's too early in the season. . maybe by August youngsters like Jerome will be ready.

 

Remember, we need them rested and healthy for the playoffs.

 

 

 

[Lifetime]

Pitch counts should be individual to the pitcher as reference point based on that pitcher's norms and preparedness (dependent on the role they typically play and the number of pitches they are accustomed to throwing). That point should be used in conjunction with how the pitcher is throwing and his level of fatigue. The best time to pull him may or may not correlate with his normal pitch count threshold. Watch his control and mechanics and look for the tells. However, the other aspect of this equation is the need to manage a pitcher's fatigue in a way that keeps him strong through the end of the season. Not an exact science but something a manager and pitching coach have to consider. To do that, you want to remove a pitcher before he is completely gassed. Once and a while you can let the pitcher do that but doing it several times in a row can be problematic. I think this point is amplified when a team is thin on pitching and has injuries to boot. 

[stormngt]

We need a revolutionary; a free-thinking manager.  Not limited to the Angels, just someone who dares to try something new in baseball.

 

Why do we still have pitching roles? It's hideous and outdated.  Closers should not exist.  Nor should 7th, 8th or mop up men.

Do you people watch the games?  Scioscia on many occasions has let a pitcher pitch beyond 100 pitches.  And Fieri has come in and pitched in the 8th inning several times this year.  If we still have pitching roles on this team as you suggest can you explain them to me because I haven't seen any!

[Scott34]

Do you people watch the games?  Scioscia on many occasions has let a pitcher pitch beyond 100 pitches.  And Fieri has come in and pitched in the 8th inning several times this year.  If we still have pitching roles on this team as you suggest can you explain them to me because I haven't seen any!

 

Who's the Angels closer?

[fan_since79]

Nolan Ryan routinely threw 120-140 pitches a game and he played for 27 years. In 1989 (he was 42 years old) he averaged 123 pitches/start.

 

222 complete games in his career.

[Lifetime]

That doesn't mean that is the right model for every or even most pitchers though. It needs to be something that is adjusted per pitcher and even then, not hard and fast, only as a guideline. 

[Angel Oracle]

Billy Martin is the one to look at. When the 1980 A'ths threw 106 CGs, and then most of those 5 starters developed arm/shoulder issues shortly after, that's where things started to change, with managers becoming overly cautious.

And while yes Ryan isn't one for all pitchers to mimic, using any pitcher to his max that day should be the norm and not babying starters.

[Ohtaniland]

Pitch counts are bullsh*t. Old school guys like Koufax never wanted to be pulled in the 6th inning especially with a bullpen like ours. Luis Tiant once pitched 15 innings.

[nando714]

Kids are brought up different now

There's pitching rules all the way through little league high school. Maybe college. Different state of mind these days when it comes to arms and pc. 60's 70's 80's there were probably no rules to limited rules. Just a different ball game now i think

[Lifetime]

Pitch counts aren't bullshit. Having a boiler plate pitch count is BS but there is definitely a place and usefulness to pitch counts. Pointing to a few old school guys who threw long and routinely had high pitch counts does not indicate that pitch counts are complete BS.

[Lifetime]

Kids are brought up different now

There's pitching rules all the way through little league high school. Maybe college. Different state of mind these days when it comes to arms and pc. 60's 70's 80's there were probably no rules to limited rules. Just a different ball game now i think

colleges often go with very high PPG counts even still. Their seasons are pretty short though so arm fatigue is not as big of a concern. LL and HS have pitch count and innings per week limit rules.

[Jeff M]

Ron Washington knows what's up...Darvish and his 130 pitch blowout performance the other night is an example. I love that he did this.

[Chuck]

I don't agree with these pussified pitch counts either. LET THE PITCHER TELL YOU WHEN HE'S DONE.

 

I mean seriously. These guys play once every five fargin games. Let them go out there throw 120-150 pitches if they have it in them.

 

GM's and Managers need to quit vaginizing starting pitchers. Period.

[jshep]

colleges often go with very high PPG counts even still. Their seasons are pretty short though so arm fatigue is not as big of a concern. LL and HS have pitch count and innings per week limit rules.

 

And then there are the colleges that just go off the deep end and put ridiculous workloads on these kids' arms.

[Ray McKigney]

I can't remember ever even hearing about a pitch count while watching a game until about 10 years ago. Even then, they would mention it a couple of times, but that was about it. Now they have the pitch count right next to the score in the corner of the screen and the commentators talk about it non-stop during the game. 

[Lifetime]

And then there are the colleges that just go off the deep end and put ridiculous workloads on these kids' arms.

some, sure

[Lifetime]

I can't remember ever even hearing about a pitch count while watching a game until about 10 years ago. Even then, they would mention it a couple of times, but that was about it. Now they have the pitch count right next to the score in the corner of the screen and the commentators talk about it non-stop during the game. 

They were tracking it back then, they just weren't broadcasting it.

[Lifetime]

I don't agree with these pussified pitch counts either. LET THE PITCHER TELL YOU WHEN HE'S DONE.

 

I mean seriously. These guys play once every five fargin games. Let them go out there throw 120-150 pitches if they have it in them.

 

GM's and Managers need to quit vaginizing starting pitchers. Period.

I disagree that it should be up to the pitcher to tell the manager when he's done. That's not to say that pitch counts should be hard and fast. As I said upstream, they should be a guide not a set limit. When to pull a pitcher should be based on that individual pitcher's limitations, his strength in that game, how he's throwing, whether his mechanics are starting to fall apart, control, etc. Then on top of that, pitchers need to be managed to last an entire season not blow them out in the first couple of months. I don't think asking a pitcher if he is done will get you an honest answer 9 times out of 10. These guys are competitors and they want to stay in and compete even when they are coming apart and tired.  Watch the tells, reduced speed, poor mechanics, loss of control, and know the pitcher's normal fatigue point and number of pitches thrown in recent outings.

[LAA]

I disagree that it should be up to the pitcher to tell the manager when he's done. That's not to say that pitch counts should be hard and fast. As I said upstream, they should be a guide not a set limit. When to pull a pitcher should be based on that individual pitcher's limitations, his strength in that game, how he's throwing, whether his mechanics are starting to fall apart, control, etc. Then on top of that, pitchers need to be managed to last an entire season not blow them out in the first couple of months. I don't think asking a pitcher if he is done will get you an honest answer 9 times out of 10. These guys are competitors and they want to stay in and compete even when they are coming apart and tired.  Watch the tells, reduced speed, poor mechanics, loss of control, and know the pitcher's normal fatigue point and number of pitches thrown in recent outings.

Well then if you can't trust the pitcher then ask for the catchers input. If the catcher is competitive with winning in mind then he will give his honest opinion.

[Lifetime]

Well then if you can't trust the pitcher then ask for the catchers input. If the catcher is competitive with winning in mind then he will give his honest opinion.

the catcher can't really tell them anything they can't observe from the dugout.

[LAA]

the catcher can't really tell them anything they can't observe from the dugout.

Are you suggesting the catcher doesn't get a better feel for the pitchers than someone in the dugout? I find that a very unlikely scenario. Carlton Fisk might also disagree with you.