Dump Valbuena

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Cowart may not hit more HR than Valbuena but I'm sure he can hit .199. There is no question which one is the better defender. If keeping Valbuena just because he is LF and can play 1B and 3B, then Cowart would be better as a Utility IF. He can play 3B, 2B, some 1B, and even OF in a pinch. He is faster than Valbuena on the bases also. Cron should be the everyday 1B as he can hit better RHP than LHP and hits both better than Luis.

I know it will be a long shot to trade Valbuena so I guessing we keep him and Cron with Cowart in AAA until someone becomes injured.

I am a huge Cowart fan, but I don’t want the current version of him over Valbuena.  Valbuena has a much bigger stick.  Cowart won’t play enough third to have the defensive value needed to separate the two.  

[Troll Daddy]

5 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

 

Valbuena in September.

I know what you're trying to argue but you said you value average more in August and September, which again makes zero sense. If you're arguing about sample sizes then why do you care of it's sustainable?

I’m ok with Valbuena on the bench ... I did mention that

I consider his power production more of a fluke when you factor in BA. It’s possible he can sustain those power number but his BA will have to pick up is all I’m saying. 

 

[eaterfan]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I am a huge Cowart fan, but I don’t want the current version of him over Valbuena.  Valbuena has a much bigger stick.  Cowart won’t play enough third to have the defensive value needed to separate the two.  

Kaleb Cowart's OPS+ in MLB by season:

52, 21, 89.

Comparing him to Cron or Valbuena is silly at this point. The best year of his career was still worse than LV's or CC's worst years in recent memory. 

It's possible Cowart could put up a 90 OPS+ next year. It's possible he could put up a 50. It's also possible LV puts up a 115 OPS+ next year. 

But why choose between offense (CJ Cron) and versatility (Cowart) when you can have both in Valbuena?

[DMVol]

 

17 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

I think the odds of Ohtani being such a bad pitcher and such a good hitter that he's moved to permanent DH are about as good as my chances to become the permanent DH.

He will have to really stink for the Angels to give up on him as a pitcher. I'd imagine they give him at least a year or two to work it out on the mound. If he's such a good hitter that his bar plays they may take an off season or send him down to the minors to learn a position. He has the speed for it.

I didn't necessarily mean they give up on him as a pitcher (that is still his position, in the mind of most scouts) but what if struggles some as a pitcher is really good as a hitter, maybe really good, in the spring and early in the season....and Albert struggles at 1b....you're not giving up on Ohtani as a pitcher but you'd like to get him in the lineup as a hitter while he figures it out as pitcher...Dunno...

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

6 homers and an .865 OPS in August. He was one of our best hitters that month.

5 homers and a respectable .767 OPS in Sept/Oct.

Try again.

 

He hits for power, which is reflective in OPS, but he still sucks....in my opinion....

[eaterfan]

Just now, DMVol said:

 

I didn't necessarily mean they give up on him as a pitcher (that is still his position, in the mind of most scouts) but what if struggles some as a pitcher is really good as a hitter, maybe really good, in the spring and early in the season....and Albert struggles at 1b....you're not giving up on Ohtani as a pitcher but you'd like to get him in the lineup as a hitter while he figures it out as pitcher...Dunno...

I think they will do whatever it takes for him to succeed as a pitcher first. I think that make getting him rest between starts. That's why I think they won't DH him more than 2-3 times per week (if he's a successful hitter) until they give up on him as a pitcher. I think that's Stradling's point too. The limiting factor in his DHing (if he can hit) will mostly be his pitching, not other players.

[DMVol]

17 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

I think they will do whatever it takes for him to succeed as a pitcher first. I think that make getting him rest between starts. That's why I think they won't DH him more than 2-3 times per week (if he's a successful hitter) until they give up on him as a pitcher. I think that's Stradling's point too. The limiting factor in his DHing (if he can hit) will mostly be his pitching, not other players.

Don't disagree but the problem arises if Albert starts hobbling (again) and can't play 1b....Whether you want to get Ohtani in the linuep 2/3 times a week (which makes sense) or not, if the guy who is owed 100 million (give or take) can't play anywhere but DH, that could be a problem....we'll see...

[WeatherWonk]

4 hours ago, eaterfan said:

Why do people keep using batting average? It's about the least telling stat you could use for an offensive player.

What was his OBP over that time period? How about his slugging? How about his OPS+?

Looks like his OBP in those two months was around .320 and his OPS was around .820. Struck out over 25% of the time.

If he wasn't marginally versatile and wasn't guaranteed 8 mil next year, he'd be gone. But.................it's certainly not his bat keeping him here.

 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

But why choose between offense (CJ Cron) and versatility (Cowart) when you can have both in Valbuena?

Because his offense is worse than Cron's and his defense is worse than both of them. Since Cozart will be playing 3B most every game, Valbuena's use at that position is almost nonexistent, and since Cron hits better than Valbuena and plays better defense than Valbuena his value at 1B is small IMO. On the rare occasions when an infielder needs a day off Cowart could fill in. He won't need to play that much so what does it matter if it's Luis or Kaleb as the backup infielder.

disclaimer:

I don't expect that to happen I just think I would give Cron the every day job at 1B until the All Star break before I would pull his plug. And if that's the case then Valbuena would be expendable, and Cowart could be the UT IF. Cowart is fast and can PR in late innings for Pujols. Valbuena isn't a good base runner.

[WeatherWonk]

Can Cowart still be optioned to AAA?

[Ohtaniland]

5 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Because his offense is worse than Cron's and his defense is worse than both of them. Since Cozart will be playing 3B most every game, Valbuena's use at that position is almost nonexistent, and since Cron hits better than Valbuena and plays better defense than Valbuena his value at 1B is small IMO. On the rare occasions when an infielder needs a day off Cowart could fill in. He won't need to play that much so what does it matter if it's Luis or Kaleb as the backup infielder.

disclaimer:

I don't expect that to happen I just think I would give Cron the every day job at 1B until the All Star break before I would pull his plug. And if that's the case then Valbuena would be expendable, and Cowart could be the UT IF. Cowart is fast and can PR in late innings for Pujols. Valbuena isn't a good base runner.

If we’re still talking about what to do with Cron, Cowart and Valbuena then Eppler hasn’t finished the job yet. 

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, Troll Daddy said:

I’m ok with Valbuena on the bench ... I did mention that

I consider his power production more of a fluke when you factor in BA. It’s possible he can sustain those power number but his BA will have to pick up is all I’m saying. 

 

Ok that makes sense. 

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

I’m shocked 

Why don’t you list all the players who batted .200 w/.800 OPS 

Maybe the fact that Valbueno can put up an OPS of 800 with 200 ave.  Makes him special?

[WeatherWonk]

There's just something about keeping a guy who plays first and third badly, can't hit for average, but can occasionally hit a HR, YET WILL PLAY HALF HIS GAMES IN ANAHEIM STADIUM. 

OK, so he walks a bit more than average. How effective is that down at the #6 or 7 spot?

But.............he has that contract and he can play third in a pinch. And there are times when one swing off the bench can put you back in a game.......or win one.

Valbuena is a tough call. I'd rather see a combo of Cowart and Cron, too, but there is that contract AND he's only one roster spot.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

36 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Maybe the fact that Valbueno can put up an OPS of 800 with 200 ave.  Makes him special?

Special Ed

[eaterfan]

5 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

There's just something about keeping a guy who plays first and third badly, can't hit for average, but can occasionally hit a HR, YET WILL PLAY HALF HIS GAMES IN ANAHEIM STADIUM. 

OK, so he walks a bit more than average. How effective is that down at the #6 or 7 spot?

But.............he has that contract and he can play third in a pinch. And there are times when one swing off the bench can put you back in a game.......or win one.

Valbuena is a tough call. I'd rather see a combo of Cowart and Cron, too, but there is that contract AND he's only one roster spot.

 

Can we stop it with the Valbuena can't hot nonsense? After a rough first half (coming off an injury that caused him to miss the first month). He put up an .866 OPS in the second half. That would have been good for 17th in the AL last season. That's really good considering he plays in a pitchers park that is tough on left handers. Is half a season a small sample size? Yes. But he's been an above league average hitter each of the previous three seasons.

He's also been at least equal to and in some cases significantly better at hitting than CJ Cron over CJ's career, except CJ was very slightly better last season.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I'm just having a hard time seeing this roster work without CJ Cron - unless they dump him and Valbuena and somehow combine them into one guy.

Cozart is probably good for ~120 games at third, which gives VB 40 starts over there against right handed pitching. Then at first base, how many games do we expect Albert to play over there? At this point I think once or twice a week is a good bet. He'll get one day off a week, play once or twice in the field and be the primary DH the rest of the time - so maybe 40 starts at first. That leaves another ~120 starts at first base.

Now there is room here for LVB to play every day but the dude just does not hit lefties, and has to be platooned. This means there has to be someone on the roster who can hit lefties and play first base. If they cut Cron we will still need to find that guy. 

[WeatherWonk]

14 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Can we stop it with the Valbuena can't hot nonsense? After a rough first half (coming off an injury that caused him to miss the first month). He put up an .866 OPS in the second half. That would have been good for 17th in the AL last season. That's really good considering he plays in a pitchers park that is tough on left handers. Is half a season a small sample size? Yes. But he's been an above league average hitter each of the previous three seasons.

He's also been at least equal to and in some cases significantly better at hitting than CJ Cron over CJ's career, except CJ was very slightly better last season.

Actually, he had a good July, but in August his slugging went down, while he picked up more walks than usual. So, that accounted for most of this "great second half" OPS you are touting. Then, his Sept/Oct OPS was .767 and he was back hitting a buck something and an OBP of .300. That's a lot of outs. 

But saying a guy who hit below .200 for three of five months, cant hit,  isnt nonsense. He's basically a Mark Reynolds before he hit Coors field. Actually, one with less power and a few less Ks.

[Ohtaniland]

14 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

How many games do we expect Albert to play over there? At this point I think once or twice a week is a good bet. He'll get one day off a week, play once or twice in the field and be the primary DH the rest of the time - so maybe 40 starts at first. That leaves another ~120 starts at first base. 

Let’s see how this plays out. If Albert is chasing milestones he’s not going to be focused on defense so I see him DHing most of the season. His legs are shot.

 

[tdawg87]

28 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Actually, he had a good July, but in August his slugging went down, while he picked up more walks than usual. So, that accounted for most of this "great second half" OPS you are touting. Then, his Sept/Oct OPS was .767 and he was back hitting a buck something and an OBP of .300. That's a lot of outs. 

But saying a guy who hit below .200 for three of five months, cant hit,  isnt nonsense. He's basically a Mark Reynolds before he hit Coors field. Actually, one with less power and a few less Ks.

In August his slugging "went down" but was still a great .515. And he made up for the difference in slugging by getting on base a ton. Also his .767 OPS in September/October was still above average.

He's not a star. He's not even a good player. But he's a LHH with power who can play the corners. If you have a better replacement in mind please let us know.

 

[eaterfan]

51 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Actually, he had a good July, but in August his slugging went down, while he picked up more walks than usual. So, that accounted for most of this "great second half" OPS you are touting. Then, his Sept/Oct OPS was .767 and he was back hitting a buck something and an OBP of .300. That's a lot of outs. 

But saying a guy who hit below .200 for three of five months, cant hit,  isnt nonsense. He's basically a Mark Reynolds before he hit Coors field. Actually, one with less power and a few less Ks.

Why are you only looking at one year or one month?

Everyone will have bad months (even Trout). Everyone will have good months. I will admit his second half is a small sample size and not a great predictor of the future when looked at on its own. But in the context of his career his second half looks more like his last 3 years than his first half. The dude has been an above average to good hitter three and a half of the last 4 years.

It's like if it didn't happen on the Angels then it never happened.

[WeatherWonk]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

In August his slugging "went down" but was still a great .515. And he made up for the difference in slugging by getting on base a ton. Also his .767 OPS in September/October was still above average.

He's not a star. He's not even a good player. But he's a LHH with power who can play the corners. If you have a better replacement in mind please let us know.

 

I'm resigned to him being on the roster. But he's only a LHH with power against RH pitchers. Cron's splits are actually better. And way cheaper.

But there's that contract..................no getting around that.

So Cron will be traded or released and Valbuena will be gone after this year. Or maybe by the trading deadline. But Albert will still be here, so we will still need a cost controlled first baseman to counter his bloated contract at that corner. Is there one coming up through the ranks that has more promise than Cron? 

[Stradling]

12 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

I'm resigned to him being on the roster. But he's only a LHH with power against RH pitchers. Cron's splits are actually better. And way cheaper.

But there's that contract..................no getting around that.

So Cron will be traded or released and Valbuena will be gone after this year. Or maybe by the trading deadline. But Albert will still be here, so we will still need a cost controlled first baseman to counter his bloated contract at that corner. Is there one coming up through the ranks that has more promise than Cron? 

I agree it sucks that Cron can only play first base.  It has much more to do with that than Valbuena’s contract.  

[Support The Local Team]

We have had no power off the bench for years. Valbuena may be massively overpaid, but he is valuable. 

[GrittyVeterans]

Time's up

His best attribute is supposed to be his power and he's slugging .341