Which Lineup/Team would you take?

[Mark68]

The deuce

[Docwaukee]

I have my concerns about Alex Gordon maintaining his defensive value at age 32-36.  

 

there are many ways to skin this cat.  a few less after we just gave up our top prospects for a defensive minded SS.  Not the route I would have taken, but it is what it is.  But the plan should then be to create the best team possible for the next 5 years.

 

So you have three positions in limbo (LF, 3b, 2b).  1b is locked up for the next few years good or bad.  CF, RF, DH, SS and C are locked up with club controlled players of significant to decent value for at least 4 years.  

 

The SP is solid if unspectacular.  Weaver and Wilson have 1yr left.  Santiago 2 years.  Richards 3.  All the others are controlled for the 5yr window.  

 

The pen is gonna need some work over the next 5 yrs with Smith in his last year and Street with 2yrs left.  Salas and Ramos also have 1 more year.  Rasmus, Morin, Alvarez, Bedrosian and Gott are all controlled for 5 years or more.  Fortunately, bull pens are the least expensive things to fix.  

 

The goal is to make sure payroll is below the new 2017 tax threshold.  You've got 118 committed right now and that number is pretty close to the AAV.  (call it 120mil).  Add 10% for benefits (call it 20mil when payroll goes up with additional signings).  So 140mil which leaves 60 max  to play with.  

 

So let's use the 5yr window as our guide.  

 

1.  Sign Calhoun and Richards to deal where we buy out a year or two of free agency for each.  Both are 28 so it takes them to 31 or maybe 32.

2.  Sign Heyward for 9/180 with a 5 year opt out.  Incentivize the deal so that he will likely take the opt out at age 30.  Now you have a club controlled OFer who is in his prime for the next 5 yrs

3.  I would empty whatever is left of the farm to obtain a club controlled 2bman.  You have a terrible farm system that isn't likely to give you much over the next 5 years.  Any player that isn't likely to give you any major league value in the next five years is potential trade bait.  

4.  Sign Maeda.  20mil posting 6/60mil.  10mil AAV.  

5.  I would trade Wilson for anything and save 10mil. Preferably for a club controlled reliever.  

6.  I'd hand the job at 3b to Cowart.  You've got Kubitza in reserve.  You might have to piece this one together over the next five year depending on whether either of those guys develop. 

7.  I would let Eppler work his minor league FA magic for the pen.  There are some arms on the farm that will likely help too.  

 

That's about 20mil in additional payroll after the wilson trade.  Maybe a bit more to the AAV with contracts to Calhoun and Richards.  

 

If you can't obtain a 2bman in trade, then I would add Zobrist or Cabrera.  

 

After 2017, you've got some more money to spend.  to fill any gaps necessary (like 1b).  

[ispy45]

Dochalo, on 25 Nov 2015 - 8:10 PM, said:

We were 5th in the AL in starters IP and 11th in relievers IP.

Wilson wasn't exactly an innings beast either.

I've never really understood the importance of sacrificing quality for quantity relative to innings pitched.

Avg pen era is lower than starter ERA and the numbers get worse for the pitcher the more times a batter sees them.

OPS+ splits for times through the order vs SP

1st 97

2nd 98

3rd 110

4th 115

vs RP

1st 96

Would you rather have a guy avg 6 innings with a 3.5 era or 7 innings with a 4.0 era?

Remember when Santiago was asked to pitch to contact and get deeper in the games last year? He ended up with an era of 5.2, got demoted to the pen, and then sent to the minors.

He came back, made 17 starts averaging about 5 innings per with a 3.57 era.

Give us the best you got for 5 or 6.

Spend an extra 5mil on the pen and give your starters that kind of freedom. If they can't get through the order a 3rd time, don't force it. It's also cheaper to have someone like hector go 5ip and a 5mil/yr pen arm go 2ip for the total of a 3.4 era than it is to pay Jordan Zimmerman 22mil per season to go 7ip with the same era.

You are aware we don't have a deep bullpen right? We can't have our closer and setup man going three days in a row. This isn't a video game. Remember, those two games where we almost swept the Astros? Those two games we over used our bullpen. Street pitched three days in a row.

Before he got hurt, CJ was one of our top three pitchers. With CJ, we were winning games and resting our bullpen.

We are not going win many ball games if most of our pitchers are going 5 innings. It's one of the main reasons we on that losing streak after the all-star game. Because, our pitchers went below 6 innings, our bull pen was exhausted at the end of the season against Texas.

After the All Star break, Hector went 4 of 15 games in going 6 inning or more. Our bullpen was being used so much we had to bring in AA guys in to rest our pen.

I don't understand why so many want to trade CJ. Trading CJ now when his value is currently low, exposes our limited bullpen,and If he preforms well

 

we are giving away Draft Pick.  You are aware this is contract year right? 

Having pitchers go at least 6 innings is a key to success, allows the team to rest the pen, and it's one of the reason why the Royals traded for Cueto.

Edited November 26, 2015 by ispy45

[eligrba]

I prefer whatever lineup that has Mike Trout in it.

[Troll Daddy]

You can forget the Wilson trade ideas unless the Angels sign a front of the rotation starter.

Even if you're going to trade him ... now isn't the time.

[DailyHalo]

You are aware we don't have a deep bullpen right? We can't have our closer and setup man going three days in a row. This isn't a video game. Remember, those two games where we almost swept the Astros? Those two games we over used our bullpen. Street pitched three days in a row.

Before he got hurt, CJ was one of our top three pitchers. With CJ, we were winning games and resting our bullpen.

We are not going win many ball games if most of our pitchers are going 5 innings. It's one of the main reasons we on that losing streak after the all-star game. Because, our pitchers went below 6 innings, our bull pen was exhausted at the end of the season against Texas.

After the All Star break, Hector went 4 of 15 games in going 6 inning or more. Our bullpen was being used so much we had to bring in AA guys in to rest our pen.

I don't understand why so many want to trade CJ. Trading CJ now when his value is currently low, exposes our limited bullpen,and If he preforms well

 

we are giving away Draft Pick.  You are aware this is contract year right? 

Having pitchers go at least 6 innings is a key to success, allows the team to rest the pen, and it's one of the reason why the Royals traded for Cueto.

You act like C.J. is a poster child for going deep into ballgames! We should try and trade him because you generally know what your going to get out of him, if healthy. You get a change of scenery for him and you save some money for us, which can help both parties. He wont turn his career around I'm sure or anything so it's not like it would be for lock down major league talent. We don't have too go after Lawrie per say but we should look to improve the pen or infield through trades. Signing Zobrist, Gordon/Upton and Maeda could be a few go too moves, that won't break the bizzank.

[marcosantinia12]

Doc, I really like that route. I'd also like to make an effort for Hwang like some here have mentioned.

As for Wilson, I think he would have more value than a cost-controlled RP. I myself have suggested trading him, but those scenarios would be in packages for a 2nd or 3rd baseman. I would think Wilson to Boston can make a lot of sense because they would get a 2-3 rotation starter at a discount price (10 mil). I think he could start a convo for Holt, and of course you would have to throw in some cost-controlled young players to offset the fact that Wilson has only 1 year. But if you can materialize Wilson + Bedrosian + Giovotella for Holt then it would be great.

[DailyHalo]

I think Wilson and pieces for Sandoval is more likely. It's a semi salary dumb and change of scenery type situation but for 13-15M per, it makes you think about for a second.

[gotbeer]

The thing with CJ is this.  

 

Are you going to sign him after this season.  Probably not.

 

Will you trade him midseason?  Maybe.  And really the only way you would trade him is if he is doing poorly, which is where he would be right now.  If he is doing well, you keep him for the run since he does have experience. 

 

So where would he have more value.  Now, when a team that trades for him could recoup a draft pick if they give him a QO.  Or later in the season, if he's floundering.  Because I really don't think we will trade him if he is doing well.  

 

So IMO.  Your options are, trade him now, save some salary, and possibly get something in return.  Gamble, and hope he recovers from the surgery, and you will have a postseason starter.  Or wait, and find out you have to pay most of his salary, while costing you games, and get little in return.  

[Troll Daddy]

The thing with CJ is this.

Are you going to sign him after this season. Probably not.

Will you trade him midseason? Maybe. And really the only way you would trade him is if he is doing poorly, which is where he would be right now. If he is doing well, you keep him for the run since he does have experience.

So where would he have more value. Now, when a team that trades for him could recoup a draft pick if they give him a QO. Or later in the season, if he's floundering. Because I really don't think we will trade him if he is doing well.

So IMO. Your options are, trade him now, save some salary, and possibly get something in return. Gamble, and hope he recovers from the surgery, and you will have a postseason starter. Or wait, and find out you have to pay most of his salary, while costing you games, and get little in return.

If you're hoping he recovers from surgery ... then what are the other teams thinking. So you suggest trading him at his lowest point?

[ispy45]

Doc, I really like that route. I'd also like to make an effort for Hwang like some here have mentioned.

As for Wilson, I think he would have more value than a cost-controlled RP. I myself have suggested trading him, but those scenarios would be in packages for a 2nd or 3rd baseman. I would think Wilson to Boston can make a lot of sense because they would get a 2-3 rotation starter at a discount price (10 mil). I think he could start a convo for Holt, and of course you would have to throw in some cost-controlled young players to offset the fact that Wilson has only 1 year. But if you can materialize Wilson + Bedrosian + Giovotella for Holt then it would be great.

 

The thing with CJ is this.  

 

Are you going to sign him after this season.  Probably not.

 

Will you trade him midseason?  Maybe.  And really the only way you would trade him is if he is doing poorly, which is where he would be right now.  If he is doing well, you keep him for the run since he does have experience. 

 

So where would he have more value.  Now, when a team that trades for him could recoup a draft pick if they give him a QO.  Or later in the season, if he's floundering.  Because I really don't think we will trade him if he is doing well.  

 

So IMO.  Your options are, trade him now, save some salary, and possibly get something in return.  Gamble, and hope he recovers from the surgery, and you will have a postseason starter.  Or wait, and find out you have to pay most of his salary, while costing you games, and get little in return.  

 

CJ Wilson is unknown now. If the Angels think he will do well,why trade CJ now when his value is low? If I am another MLB team why would I give up cost controlled guy who can play at average anywhere around the diamond for an unknown rental, below average 2b, and an unreliable reliever?  Be realistic. 

Edited November 26, 2015 by ispy45

[Docwaukee]

You are aware we don't have a deep bullpen right? We can't have our closer and setup man going three days in a row. This isn't a video game. Remember, those two games where we almost swept the Astros? Those two games we over used our bullpen. Street pitched three days in a row.

Before he got hurt, CJ was one of our top three pitchers. With CJ, we were winning games and resting our bullpen.

We are not going win many ball games if most of our pitchers are going 5 innings. It's one of the main reasons we on that losing streak after the all-star game. Because, our pitchers went below 6 innings, our bull pen was exhausted at the end of the season against Texas.

After the All Star break, Hector went 4 of 15 games in going 6 inning or more. Our bullpen was being used so much we had to bring in AA guys in to rest our pen.

I don't understand why so many want to trade CJ. Trading CJ now when his value is currently low, exposes our limited bullpen,and If he preforms well

 

we are giving away Draft Pick.  You are aware this is contract year right? 

Having pitchers go at least 6 innings is a key to success, allows the team to rest the pen, and it's one of the reason why the Royals traded for Cueto.

there is a lot here to deal with so I hope I don't forget something. 

 

-you do realize that you gave a sample of three games that happens randomly during the season all the time? right?

-you do realize that our closer pitching 3 days in a row has almost nothing to do with the depth of our bullpen or the amount of innings our starter go? right?

-you do realize that we were fighting for our playoff lives and it was only the second time all season where that happened?

-you do realize that that the offseason isn't over and there is still an opportunity to create pen depth?  right?

-you do realize that CJ Wilson averaged 1/3 of an inning over your arbitrary marker and he made 21 starts so he saved the pen 7 innings total for the whole season?  

-you do realize that we had 5 guys in the pen with a lower era than Wilson?

-you do realize that our team averaged 6 inning per start and Wilson was 1/3rd of an inning above that?

-you do realize that we were 11-10 as a team is games started by CJ Wilson?  

-you do realize that we were horrible from late July through August because both the offense and starting pitching fell apart?  

-you do realize that rosters expanded after the ASB and that is why a bunch of minor leaguers came up?

-you do realize that CJ Wilson's value likely won't change considering he has 1yr left and that there is absolutely zero chance of him getting a qualifying offer?  zero.  

-you do realize that having good pitchers is the key to success (relative to pitching).  The better they are, the more likelihood they pitch more.  

-you do realize that the Royals traded for Cueto because he's good at getting guys out?  The fact that he could chew up some innings is secondary.  Otherwise they would have just traded for some scrub innings eater.  They want a #1 starter for the playoffs.  

-you do realize that the halos had the 10th highest ip/start in all of baseball last season? while CJ was a contributor to that, he wasn't head and shoulders above the rest.  

 

you want innings from our starter?  great.  we'll just go out and sign a bunch of knuckleballers that give us a 4.5 era so we can save the pen.  

 

Of course their has to be balance.  But why sacrifice quality for quantity?

 

CJ is a logical trade option because he's expensive, decent, and in his walk year.  If you have the depth to cover losing him, then you see what he can get you to improve the team.  Otherwise, you keep him. 

[Troll Daddy]

You do realize CJ was pitching hurt last season.

You do realize CJ has always pitched better after surgery.

You do realize most of our depth is unproven or has struggled last season.

You do realize trading CJ before ST isn't a great idea.

You do realize I have a turkey in the oven.

[ispy45]

You do realize CJ was pitching hurt last season.

You do realize CJ has always pitched better after surgery.

You do realize most of our depth is unproven or has struggled last season.

You do realize trading CJ before ST isn't a great idea.

You do realize I have a turkey in the oven.

The perfect reply.

[gotbeer]

 

CJ Wilson is unknown now. If the Angels think he will do well,why trade CJ now when his value is low? If I am another MLB team why would I give up cost controlled guy who can play at average anywhere around the diamond for an unknown rental, below average 2b, and an unreliable reliever?  Be realistic. 

 

 

Considering what guys like Chen are rumored to be asking.  There might be plenty of interest in CJ. 

[Troll Daddy]

Considering what guys like Chen are rumored to be asking. There might be plenty of interest in CJ.

I would think the Angels would be interested in a healthy CJ for 1yr/10M

[DailyHalo]

I think physically, Wilson will be ready too go for opening day but he also probably won't get a QO even with a good/full season. I'm sure C.J. will want another contract though and still has something to prove. It's worth a look at least because we would be trading for another teams positionless kid/late bloomer or a salary dumb/change of scenery type of candidate. More importantly, It's only for a year and would fill areas of need for both teams. It's not like there can't be risk on our part either as well. 

[marcosantinia12]

Be realistic. [/background][/size]

You have to give to get. The way I see it, Wilson has question marks, but he's a proven successful SP. Boston's rotation needs all the help it can get and they have plans to pick up a front starter. That won't be enough for them to compete so taking their chances on a proven 2-3 SP, albeit with questions, is a risk worth taking IMO considering that they have an excess of position players - all cost controlled.

CJ is a solid pitcher. We love to critisize him here but hes the second best starter in our current rotation. Even with his question marks, a team like them would gladly take him. Newsflash: every player will have some sort of question marks. If one doesn't, we probably don't have the pieces to acquire him and for them, it would cost them a haul of their coveted young guys.

Now, does CJ for Holt really get it done? Maybe if CJ was controlled for 3+ more years but he's not. This is why I suggest Bedrosian and Giovotella. Not that they are any difference making pieces, but they are controlled options. If CJ tanks this year, then it was a lost trade for them. If a healthy CJ pitches for them they win it. A good healthy CJ have more value than Holt. And before you bring up Holt's versatility value, we're talking about a pitcher who signed for $77.5 million in the FA market- coming from a hitter's park at that. Of course he has value at a cheap price and for a team like them. Not only is it a big win for them if CJ comes healthy and strong... They offer a QO and pick up a draft pick. On top of that they add years of control with Gio and Bedrosian and open up a roster spot for some of their excess young position players.

So, is this releastic? Absolutely, I would think so. Were in a position that we have an excess of pitching (quantity) and they have an excess amount of position players. Its a fit. We run a risk as well by taking a player whose numbers are inflated by the division and parks he plays in and bringing him to Anaheim. We also miss out on a possible higher value CJ if he performs well. Something we could have flipped for bigger value mid-season or get a comp pick for... Brings me back to my point, gotta give to get.

Edited November 26, 2015 by marcosantinia12

[marcosantinia12]

Considering what guys like Chen are rumored to be asking. There might be plenty of interest in CJ.

This. CJ isn't worth the 20 mil he is being paid this year. But even after surgery, a pitching-depleted team should gladly take him for 10 mil. He would be asking for 3 years in the FA market, probably around 30 mil ( which is still 10m AAV, but 2 extra years of commitment nonetheless).

[ten ocho recon scout]

I just like that in Docs teply, he said CJ "isnt head and shoulders" anove the rest

Well done

[Docwaukee]

I just like that in Docs teply, he said CJ "isnt head and shoulders" anove the rest

Well done

  I was hoping someone would get that.  

[QuinlansMinion]

Lol @ Soto being a big bat

[ten ocho recon scout]

I was hoping someone would get that.

i know its thanksgiving, and people are sleepy from triptophan, but get it together AW. That was a good joke insert, it deserved its kudos

[marcosantinia12]

Lol @ Soto being a big bat

2015: .780 OPS vs lefties

Career: .852 OPS vs lefties

Top 3 Angels in OPS:

1.Mike Trout .991

2.Albert Pujols .787

3.Soto (vs lefties) .780

Next is Freese at 30 points lower.

So I'll state my point again - IF used correctly, Soto is a big bat from the bottom of the lineup.

Edited November 27, 2015 by marcosantinia12

[Troll Daddy]

I still has my doubts with Perez ... if he struggles the fans here will turn on him fast. He went three months batting below the Mendoza line. He can't hit lefties ... will have to earn the full time job.