Confederate Monuments

[krAbs]

I didn't see a topic on this here, so I figured I'd start one.

 

I have trouble seeing the case for a state/city/county/whatever putting up confederate monuments (if you want to put a monument up in your front yard, whatever. I guess. A little weird, but whatever. Freedom to express your racism). I think a lot of you have a very different viewpoint than me, so I would be happy if you would help enlighten me.

[mtangelsfan]

What if they have been there for a hundred years?  Who is putting up new confederate monuments?

[AngelsLakersFan]

I can't say I have a problem with Civil War era monuments, but I might have a problem with monuments put up in the 1920's for the purpose of reminding the up and coming generation of black kids about where they stand. 

[Jason]

If they've been up for a long time then I'm not for erasing history. If we allow people to take them down when they feel like it where will it stop? If they are to be taken down then in needs to go through a legislative process

[Kevin]

As a big civil war history nerd, I struggle with this a lot. 

The only solution I can come up with is not so much a removal completely but a relocation to battlefields, museums, or confederate cemeteries. They might already be doing this but I haven't followed too closely on what happens after the removal. 

The ironic thing about the removal of  General Lee's statue is, although he fought for an unjust cause (he was supportive of blacks being educated after the war but opposed to them voting) ,he was a great example of trying to reconcile a divided country, not constantly trying to tear it down. 

Also a good read. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments

[Jason]

13 minutes ago, Jason said:

If they've been up for a long time then I'm not for erasing history. If we allow people to take them down when they feel like it where will it stop? If they are to be taken down then in needs to go through a legislative process

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/11/museum-natural-history-theodore-roosevelt-statue-protest

I'll answer my own question

[Jason]

6 minutes ago, Kevin said:

As a big civil war history nerd, I struggle with this a lot. 

The only solution I can come up with is not so much a removal completely but a relocation to battlefields, museums, or confederate cemeteries. They might already be doing this but I haven't followed too closely on what happens after the removal. 

The ironic thing about the removal of  General Lee's statue is, although he fought for an unjust cause (he was supportive of blacks being educated after the war but opposed to them voting) ,he was a great example of trying to reconcile a divided country, not constantly trying to tear it down. 

Also a good read. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments

So the people who took it down are retarded?

[Kevin]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

So the people who took it down are retarded?

And the people who want them up would be doing the exact opposite of what General Lee wanted. 

Complicated times. Both then and now. 

[krAbs]

The consensus appears to be that new = bad, classic = fine, and a part of history. So, followup question: Why is that so? Not to be the Nazi guy, but honestly...what would your reaction be if you walked into modern day Germany, and there were statues of Hitler and his ilk, and they were kept up because they were part of history? There seems to me to be a huge difference between acknowledging the past and celebrating it.

[mtangelsfan]

6 minutes ago, krAbs said:

The consensus appears to be that new = bad, classic = fine, and a part of history. So, followup question: Why is that so? Not to be the Nazi guy, but honestly...what would your reaction be if you walked into modern day Germany, and there were statues of Hitler and his ilk, and they were kept up because they were part of history? There seems to me to be a huge difference between acknowledging the past and celebrating it.

There are so many things that offend people.  I just don't get the idea of getting offended by pieces of rock, metal, wood.  

Regardless, history is history.  Good, bad and ugly it got us where we are today and you can't make it disappear nor should you want to.  I couldn't care less if they take down statues in state capitols but that should be the state's choice.  

[red321]

Why the hell would we continue to allow the whitewashing of our history? The South seceding wasn't a glorious movement in our history, it was a war of treason to continue a way of life and economic model based on slavery. Monuments to the confederates are tantamount to building statues to traitors. Most of the monuments in place today where put in place to glorify treason and instill fear in blacks. We don't put up statues to the Japanese and German armies, or the British Army who fought against us in the Revolutionary War or War of 1812.

If you are a black citizen in the south, or someone who didn't commit/celebrate treason how does it feel to walk into a city center and see a statue celebrating treason and slavery?

If you want to celebrate "your history", bigotry, and a way of life (racism/jim crow laws, etc) build a museum of intolerence and collect all the statues you want, they'll need to go someplace as communities start to rightfully remove them from our public places.

[krAbs]

Just now, mtangelsfan said:

There are so many things that offend people.  I just don't get the idea of getting offended by pieces of rock, metal, wood.  

Regardless, history is history.  Good, bad and ugly it got us where we are today and you can't make it disappear nor should you want to.  I couldn't care less if they take down statues in state capitols but that should be the state's choice.  

IDK man. You look around at other countries, and they like...actually embrace their bad, instead of just celebrating it. In Germany, instead of having statues of Hitler, they have monuments in front of the houses that were seized from the Jews. My understanding is that Rwanda has taken similar steps. But, it seems like we have gone past acknowledging what we have done, and are literally proud of it. Like...sure, it should be the state's choice. But that seems like a pretty messed up kinda choice.

I guess, to me its not the "pieces of rock, metal, wood" that are offensive, in the same way that a couple pieces of rock isn't what makes a Vietnam memorial important. What is offensive is the message being yelled out there.

[mtangelsfan]

Whitewashing?  

How many white Americans died in the Civil War?  You want to condemn anyone who was part of the Confederacy, bully for you.  

 

[krAbs]

2 minutes ago, red321 said:

Why the hell would we continue to allow the whitewashing of our history? The South seceding wasn't a glorious movement in our history, it was a war of treason to continue a way of life and economic model based on slavery. Monuments to the confederates are tantamount to building statues to traitors. Most of the monuments in place today where put in place to glorify treason and instill fear in blacks. We don't put up statues to the Japanese and German armies, or the British Army who fought against us in the Revolutionary War or War of 1812.

If you are a black citizen in the south, or someone who didn't commit/celebrate treason how does it feel to walk into a city center and see a statue celebrating treason and slavery?

If you want to celebrate "your history", bigotry, and a way of life (racism/jim crow laws, etc) build a museum of intolerence and collect all the statues you want, they'll need to go someplace as communities start to rightfully remove them from our public places.

So this is kinda my point. Except I would actually go further. I see literally no difference between that, and going to a predominantly Jewish area and putting up a statue of Hitler. It sends an identical message.

[Jason]

2 minutes ago, red321 said:

Why the hell would we continue to allow the whitewashing of our history? The South seceding wasn't a glorious movement in our history, it was a war of treason to continue a way of life and economic model based on slavery. Monuments to the confederates are tantamount to building statues to traitors. Most of the monuments in place today where put in place to glorify treason and instill fear in blacks. We don't put up statues to the Japanese and German armies, or the British Army who fought against us in the Revolutionary War or War of 1812.

If you are a black citizen in the south, or someone who didn't commit/celebrate treason how does it feel to walk into a city center and see a statue celebrating treason and slavery?

If you want to celebrate "your history", bigotry, and a way of life (racism/jim crow laws, etc) build a museum of intolerence and collect all the statues you want, they'll need to go someplace as communities start to rightfully remove them from our public places.

I agree with this but random citizens shouldn't be able to just show up and tear them down like we saw yesterday.  That's vandalism. There needs to be a process in getting them removed.

[mtangelsfan]

1 minute ago, krAbs said:

IDK man. You look around at other countries, and they like...actually embrace their bad, instead of just celebrating it. In Germany, instead of having statues of Hitler, they have monuments in front of the houses that were seized from the Jews. My understanding is that Rwanda has taken similar steps. But, it seems like we have gone past acknowledging what we have done, and are literally proud of it. Like...sure, it should be the state's choice. But that seems like a pretty messed up kinda choice.

I guess, to me its not the "pieces of rock, metal, wood" that are offensive, in the same way that a couple pieces of rock isn't what makes a Vietnam memorial important. What is offensive is the message being yelled out there.

Call me when Europe has a memorial for how freaking racist they still are.  Or let me know when they have a memorial condemning their colonialism.  

For me, you don't change minds by tearing down stuff.  Hate will never conquer hate.

[Blarg]

Erasing history because you don't like it's context. Seems like an autrocity when other cultures do it.

[krAbs]

 

I've had enough of these freaking vandals!!

[mtangelsfan]

Funny for sure but not really comparable.

[red321]

8 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Whitewashing?  

How many white Americans died in the Civil War?  You want to condemn anyone who was part of the Confederacy, bully for you.  

 

Yes, pretending that the confederacy was some glorious rebellion is continuing to whitewash history. Putting up statues to the leaders of the confederacy is an insult. 

[Thomas]

Just now, red321 said:

Yes, pretending that the confederacy was some glorious rebellion is continuing to whitewash history. Putting up statues to the leaders of the confederacy is an insult. 

Shall we tear down all the monuments of the past leaders who owned slaves and rename our capital?

[krAbs]

2 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Call me when Europe has a memorial for how freaking racist they still are.  Or let me know when they have a memorial condemning their colonialism.  

For me, you don't change minds by tearing down stuff.  Hate will never conquer hate.

So what, we can't make progress until everyone else is perfect? Or is it okay to celebrate slavery because other people did bad things too?

On a level, you are right: racists will be racists, and whether or not there is a statue somewhere will not change that. But, that doesn't mean that the state government has a moral case for celebrating racism. Like...you wanna talk hate? We are talking about a monument to men who fought and died in order to try to protect their right to beat a slave to death on a whim, because black people aren't really human. Every country has some nasty crap in their history - but maybe we shouldn't be celebrating that stuff? IDK. Maybe I'm nuts here.

[red321]

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

I agree with this but random citizens shouldn't be able to just show up and tear them down like we saw yesterday.  That's vandalism. There needs to be a process in getting them removed.

I don't disagree with that. I think you will start to see cities accelerate this process as well.

Mitch Landrieu had a fantastic speech on this when New Orleans removed 4 of the statues.

 

 

 

[krAbs]

2 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Shall we tear down all the monuments of the past leaders who owned slaves and rename our capital?

So this is the best argument I've heard so far. But still, the difference is: confederate generals are celebrated explicitly BECAUSE of slavery, not in spite of it.

[red321]

3 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Shall we tear down all the monuments of the past leaders who owned slaves and rename our capital?

red herring....Were those monuments erected to rebrand the history of our country and the ideals of the confederacy? (stolen from Mitch Landrieu whose speech I'm listening to again).