Excellence - Part 2

[Blarg]

Oh, believe me, I have gathered so damn much data over the last 6 months about our Health Care you would have a hard time googling it up. But your experience is reading what supports your viewpoint. Mine has been of a more independent nature.

[Angelsjunky]

Eric, quit ****ing around and put your money where your mouth is. Don't just tell him, show him - otherwise, well, talk is cheap. All you're saying is, "You're wrong, but I won't tell you why - just accept that I know what you're talking about."

 

All that aside, it is my view that our healthcare system is superior in some ways, inferior in others. It is VASTLY inferior in terms of costs and availability of good treatments for those without money or good insurance, and really only upper middle class and wealthy people have good insurance (and unfortunately Medicaid as single-payer won't help this).

 

If you break your arm and need surgery, in the UK you don't owe a dime. If you did that here, it will cost thousands with most insurance policies, tens of thousands without. That's ****ed up, imo.

 

On the other hand, there are certain kinds of care for which the US is the leading edge.

 

So for me, the question is: how to keep (and improve) the quality of US treatment, but reduce the cost? The fallacy is that you can't have one without the other. But the reason costs are high isn't because the US is so damn good at medicine--which it isn't, at least not as much as some like to think and relative to other developed nations--but because the whole thing is a big racket and the American people are being scammed by hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, and insurance companies. Oh yeah, we can throw the government in there too.

 

Ideologically speaking, the problem is that the profit motive should not be involved in health care. Healing and helping people should be the motive, not money.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Angelsjunky

[Spirit]

That's how I feel about sports.  Profit should not be the motive for players and owners.  Entertaining fans should be the motive, not money.  

[Angelsjunky]

That's how I feel about sports.  Profit should not be the motive for players and owners.  Entertaining fans should be the motive, not money.  

 

I assume you're being facetious, but they are completely different fields - sports and medicine. Sports IS entertainment, medicine should not be business.

 

Anyhow, I think for most athletes the primary motive is some combination of winning and money, with entertaining fans far behind.

[Spirit]

You can point to anything and apply an idealistic vision of what they should/shouldn't be.  Sports.  Healthcare.  Banking.  Wine/Beering.  All completely different fields, and all very important to life in 'Murica.  

 

You applied your idealistic vision.  I applied mine. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Geoff

[Blarg]

Beer should be much cheaper. Arte tried his best being a socialist, bring down the cost of beer to the masses but now the Bourgeois have taken over the stadium with their craft beers and high prices. Damn rich people.

[Jay]

You can point to anything and apply an idealistic vision of what they should/shouldn't be.  Sports.  Healthcare.  Banking.  Wine/Beering.  All completely different fields, and all very important to life in 'Murica.  

 

You applied your idealistic vision.  I applied mine. 

 

don't forget music.

 

music should definitely be free.

[Blarg]

Eric, quit ****ing around and put your money where your mouth is. Don't just tell him, show him - otherwise, well, talk is cheap. All you're saying is, "You're wrong, but I won't tell you why - just accept that I know what you're talking about."

 

Ok John lets talk about the reality of the UK healthcare and the US and let's be specific. In the UK the 5 year survival rate for all male patients diagnosed with Bladder cancer is 57%. For Women it is drastically lower at 46% (all numbers rounded up). The 10 year is 54% for men and 39% for women.

 

In the US the 5 year survival rate is 77% of all patients, male or female. The 10 year is 70%. That is all stages of bladder cancer not just the best case scenarios.

 

Information source

 

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/statistics-by-cancer-type/bladder-cancer/survival#heading-Zero

 

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/bladdercancer/detailedguide/bladder-cancer-survival-rates

 

The reason for my research was up until about a month ago I was Stage 2 with a 63% survival rate. When you have a personal investment in getting he facts you are less likely to let your politics guide your search for the truth.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have a five page questionnaire to fill out regarding my experiences at Keck Hospital of USC. Fight on!

[Angelsjunky]

You can point to anything and apply an idealistic vision of what they should/shouldn't be.  Sports.  Healthcare.  Banking.  Wine/Beering.  All completely different fields, and all very important to life in 'Murica.  

 

You applied your idealistic vision.  I applied mine. 

 

Nothing wrong with applying idealistic visions. I just wasn't sure if you were serious or not about the primary motive for athletes being entertaining fans. I don't necessarily disagree with that.

 

If you look at the big picture of history, ideals do come into action. A lot of folks here are understandably cynical, but I for one hold out hope that we can progress, evolve, etc.

[Spirit]

don't forget music.

 

music should definitely be free.

 

 

Look, I understand that musicians spend their lives training on their instruments and perfecting their craft.  Spending hours on end learning how to apply their voice and their uniqueness to their song writing.  I understand it's incredibly hard work.  And I thank them for the investment of their time, blood, sweat and tears.

 

But I shouldn't have to pay for it.  Let's get the old Napster spun back up and start sharing that stuff!  

[nate]

You can point to anything and apply an idealistic vision of what they should/shouldn't be.  Sports.  Healthcare.  Banking.  Wine/Beering.  All completely different fields, and all very important to life in 'Murica.  

 

You applied your idealistic vision.  I applied mine. 

 

The mistake you made is that AJ's idealistic vision is obviously the correct way and yours is obviously the wrong way.  Stop being so binary.

[Lou]

I have a very good Irish friend who I chat with on a daily basis. She found a lump in her breast 2 months ago. It took her 2 weeks to get in to see her doctor. At that point, she was to go to a lab for testing. She was to wait for the lab to call her with the date and time of her appointment. When I asked her why she just didn't call the lab herself and make an appointment, her response was:" it doesn't work that way here"

She received the call last Friday informing her she had an appointment for next Tuesday.

[Angelsjunky]

Ok John lets talk about the reality of the UK healthcare and the US and let's be specific. In the UK the 5 year survival rate for all male patients diagnosed with Bladder cancer is 57%. For Women it is drastically lower at 46% (all numbers rounded up). The 10 year is 54% for men and 39% for women.

 

In the US the 5 year survival rate is 77% of all patients, male or female. The 10 year is 70%. That is all stages of bladder cancer not just the best case scenarios.

 

Information source

 

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/statistics-by-cancer-type/bladder-cancer/survival#heading-Zero

 

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/bladdercancer/detailedguide/bladder-cancer-survival-rates

 

The reason for my research was up until about a month ago I was Stage 2 with a 63% survival rate. When you have a personal investment in getting he facts you are less likely to let your politics guide your search for the truth.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have a five page questionnaire to fill out regarding my experiences at Keck Hospital of USC. Fight on!

 

Thanks for that. I knew you had cancer, but I don't think Angels for Life did - which is why I wanted you to be more explicit, otherwise you were just "telling, not showing" (a writing phrase).

 

Anyhow, that's one statistic, one metric - and an important one. But it is kind of like saying Gio had a higher batting average than Pujols, therefore is a better hitter. There are so many factors. It would be interesting to compare different disease and mortality rates in different countries. But even then there are other factors - maybe the water in a country is more toxic, or the air more polluted, or greater stress levels. And then there are completely different things to consider: cost, availability, prevention, etc.

 

The whole thing is very, very complex. But I stand by my view that mixing medicine and profit is not a good thing.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Eric, I am truly sorry you've been diagnosed with that, and I sincerely wish you nothing but the best in your fight towards recovery.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Angels For Life

[Angelsjunky]

The mistake you made is that AJ's idealistic vision is obviously the correct way and yours is obviously the wrong way.  Stop being so binary.

 

Clearly you have no idea what I meant by "binary," perhaps because you are too close to it.

 

By binary I mean seeing thing as either/or, right or wrong, or 1s and 0s. Even here in your facetious manner you exhibit your inability to comprehend nuance, relativity, shades of gray, different colors.

 

Anyhow, the American story isn't about one idealistic vision winning out over the others, or one being right and the others being wrong, but finding a way to create a context in which multiple visions and ways of being can live together and peacefully interact...and to continue to evolve and adapt it as new ideas come forth.

[Blarg]

Thanks for that. I knew you had cancer, but I don't think Angels for Life did - which is why I wanted you to be more explicit, otherwise you were just "telling, not showing" (a writing phrase).

 

Anyhow, that's one statistic, one metric - and an important one. But it is kind of like saying Gio had a higher batting average than Pujols, therefore is a better hitter. There are so many factors. It would be interesting to compare different disease and mortality rates in different countries. But even then there are other factors - maybe the water in a country is more toxic, or the air more polluted, or greater stress levels. And then there are completely different things to consider: cost, availability, prevention, etc.

 

The whole thing is very, very complex. But I stand by my view that mixing medicine and profit is not a good thing.

 

No, there isn't a baseball analogy, it is a life on the line and you need to know that the UK people die in much greater numbers from cancers that are curable. The facts are not some cherry picking, playing with numbers, it is their National Cancer Institute giving up the same information as ours. Their data says they are failing a an incredibly larger rate.

[nate]

I know what binary means, I know 12 different programming languages and have spent the last 15 years being a computer programmer.  I was mocking you.

[nate]

No, there isn't a baseball analogy, it is a life on the line and you need to know that the UK people die in much greater numbers from cancers that are curable. The facts are not some cherry picking, playing with numbers, it is their National Cancer Institute giving up the same information as ours. Their data says they are failing a an incredibly larger rate.

 

Progress!

[Blarg]

Eric, I am truly sorry you've been diagnosed with that, and I sincerely wish you nothing but the best in your fight towards recovery.

 

I have the best Health Care in the World right here in So Cal. My surgeon lectures other surgeons across the world on the newest techniques in Urology. USC Norris and UCLA are two of the top leading Cancer centers in the US and they are intertwined with Cancer research across the states, my case included in that research. I volunteered to be part of a study which means I gave up more tissue and node samples to help in the fight. I will also be screened from now until my last days to offer any insight as to how they can better treat patients.

 

So while you talk about socialist medicine be damn careful about what you think that really means to the population. I would be a dead man walking in the UK because of their mortality rates. Instead I get to pester you guys for a long, long time.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

I don't know how Blarg and his firsthand knowledge can compete with a few people who read a couple articles online and are clearly experts about a system they probably have no secondhand knowledge of in countries they've possibly never even been to.   

 

On a serious note **** cancer and I hope everything works out for the best Blarg.  

[Make Angels Great Again]

I don't know how Blarg and his firsthand knowledge can compete with a few people who read a couple articles online and are clearly experts about a system they probably have no secondhand knowledge of in countries they've possibly never even been to.   

 

On a serious note **** cancer and I hope everything works out for the best Blarg.  

 

My brother in law has lymphoma cancer, and his mother died of lung cancer when he was in his early 20s, and one of my childhood friends lost his mom to throat cancer when we were in elementary school.

 

I have been fortunate enough to be quite healthy, but I have seen the effects up close as well.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Cancer blows. My mom's best friend died form it 15 years ago in her 40's leaving behind 3 kids under the age of 10.  They tried to fight it and had her so pumped full of drugs it just completely destroyed her body while she was in the hospital, like literally her back was broken.  The only hope is you catch it early enough but unfortunately you always hear stories about people who were seemingly healthy and young getting an unexpected terminal diagnosis when they go to the doctor after having stomach/back pains they don't think are serious.  Unfortunately dealing with cancer is something everyone can relate to whether it's first or secondhand knowledge.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by Catwhoshatinthehat

[Jay]

Pretty sure the only candidate who cares about cancer is Bernie!

[Amazing Larry]

Now if you'll excuse me I have a five page questionnaire to fill out regarding my experiences at Keck Hospital of USC. Fight on!

 

The docs at Keck saved my dad's life. The idiot at Hoag wanted to do a lung transplant when all he needed was my mom get to get rid her pet lovebirds. A little bit of steroids later and he's fine.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Lawrence

[Angelsjunky]

No, there isn't a baseball analogy, it is a life on the line and you need to know that the UK people die in much greater numbers from cancers that are curable. The facts are not some cherry picking, playing with numbers, it is their National Cancer Institute giving up the same information as ours. Their data says they are failing a an incredibly larger rate.

 

Eric, you're missing the point. Just because the US is better at bladder cancer doesn't mean they're better at all facets of medicine, from different diseases to cost, efficiency, etc. That was the baseball analogy.