State of the Angels Bullpen

[BTH]

A quarter of the way through the season, there’s already been a lot of change in the Angels bullpen:

• Tepera was DFA’d, Quijada and Warren are out for the season, Loup is currently on the IL.

• Really, there are only 3 relievers Nevin truly trusts: Estévez, Moore, and Devenski.

• Herget (last year) and Wantz (early this year) have shown flashes, but still haven’t earned full trust. Barría and Davidson are primarily being used in long relief. Weiss hasn’t pitched yet.

At some point, Nevin needs to give relievers, besides the top 3, opportunities to establish themselves as trustworthy relievers.

Leaving Wantz out for 39 pitches is the decision that really bugs me. They could’ve started that inning with Herget, Davidson, or Barría with a 4-run lead and seen if one of them could step up. Worst case, they blow it like an exhausted Wantz did. Instead, it’s a burned out Wantz and Tepera (who was one step away from being DFA’d).

[Second Base]

If Nevin starts using other relievers in higher leverage situations, everyone will complain about how terrible and stupid his decisions are. If Nevin only uses the top three, everyone will complain about how he's overusing then and is destroying their careers. 

The man can't win. 

[BTH]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

If Nevin starts using other relievers in higher leverage situations, everyone will complain about how terrible and stupid his decisions are. If Nevin only uses the top three, everyone will complain about how he's overusing then and is destroying their careers. 

The man can't win. 

Such is the reality of being a manager.

But if the team is going to be competitive last into the season, they’re gonna need more than 3 (2.5?) trustworthy relievers.

Running Wantz into the ground in a leverage spot was the worst of both worlds.

[Swordsman78]

5 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Such is the reality of being a manager.

But if the team is going to be competitive last into the season, they’re gonna need more than 3 (2.5?) trustworthy relievers.

Running Wantz into the ground in a leverage spot was the worst of both worlds.

39 pitches should not run a big league pitcher into the ground.   If he can't handle 39 pitches here, what will happen if we need someone to grind out an inning in the playoffs.   Players need to do their jobs better.  Simple as that.

 

Otherwise, this is a good topic for discussion.  So thank you for that.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Swordsman78

[nando714]

Devenski circa 2017 back 

[TroutField]

I think we all knew the bullpen was overlooked going into the season. Spring training didn’t do anything to make any of us feel better and Perry should have seen it… 

 

Loup, Tepera, etc wasn’t going to be good 

[Vlad27Trout27]

I actually think that Wantz has Nevins trust. 

Honestly for me the Big 3 in the BP are;

Wantz, Moore, Estravez, than it's a blurr.

Glad that tepera is gone, loup should follow soon..That's already a postive.

Devenski has looks solid.

Nevin needs to decide between Davidson and Barria on who is the  long reliever.

[Angels 1961]

Many starters going just 5 inn. Suarez early departures hurts. Ohtani and Sandoval going 6 and 7 inn big help. Most teams use a 5 man rotation and I feel halos should do the same. Need to win to keep Ohtani so pitch him more. I put Silseth back in pen have 9 man BP.

[AngelStew43]

This team needs Yovan and Joyce up right now, before too much of the season is gone.

[BTH]

2 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

39 pitches should not run a big league pitcher into the ground.   If he can't handle 39 pitches here, what will happen if we need someone to grind out an inning in the playoffs.   Players need to do their jobs better.  Simple as that.

We can argue whether or not a pitcher should be able to handle 39 pitches.

But regardless, isn't it up to the manager to realize that the pitcher can't handle that, and make the adjustment before it burns the team? Wantz should've been out of the game by the time Ramirez or Bell was up.

[BTH]

21 minutes ago, AngelStew43 said:

This team needs Yovan and Joyce up right now, before too much of the season is gone.

what makes you think either of them will be better than the current options?

I'd say, see what you have with the current mix, and then go to Yovan/Joyce if it's clear that the current group can't handle it. If you don't give the current mix a shot, how do you know what they are?

[Swordsman78]

53 minutes ago, Trendon said:

We can argue whether or not a pitcher should be able to handle 39 pitches.

But regardless, isn't it up to the manager to realize that the pitcher can't handle that, and make the adjustment before it burns the team? Wantz should've been out of the game by the time Ramirez or Bell was up.

And bring in Estevez?

[Angel Oracle]

3 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

39 pitches should not run a big league pitcher into the ground.   If he can't handle 39 pitches here, what will happen if we need someone to grind out an inning in the playoffs.   Players need to do their jobs better.  Simple as that.

 

Otherwise, this is a good topic for discussion.  So thank you for that.

The issue is that Wantz had not exceeded 30 pitches this season, and not very often in 2022.

The ideal scenario was to take him out after the 10 pitch at bat that took him to 26 pitches.   That made it one out and no one on base, ideal time to bring in the lefty Davidson as Cleveland struggles against LHP.

[Angel Oracle]

If Suarez could find 2022 Suarez, then Silseth could focus on relief pitching until a AA reliever is ready.

That still only means having 7 relievers (Estevez, Moore, Wantz, Devenski, Silseth, Davidson, and Barria).

Herget needs to find 2022 Herget.

I don’t trust Loup anymore.   He’s had a year to turn it back around, and hasn’t.

[BTH]

22 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

And bring in Estevez?

 

15 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

The issue is that Wantz had not exceeded 30 pitches this season, and not very often in 2022.

The ideal scenario was to take him out after the 10 pitch at bat that took him to 26 pitches.   That made it one out and no one on base, ideal time to bring in the lefty Davidson as Cleveland struggles against LHP.

Yeah, you can't leave Wantz in after the single by Ramirez. After that AB, his pitch count was at 37 and the tying run was up.

Nevin left Wantz in to give up 4 straight hits. Leaving him in for Ramirez after 2 straight hits is dicey. Leaving him in for Bell after 3 straight hits shouldn't happen.

You knew the top/middle of Cleveland's order was due. You have to be proactive when managing. 

[BTH]

15 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

If Suarez could find 2022 Suarez, then Silseth could focus on relief pitching until a AA reliever is ready.

I'm really bummed about Silseth having to be taken out of the bullpen, considering he looked good in his brief time there.

If he was available out of the pen, he likely would've been in there for the 8th inning on Saturday instead of Tepera, and maybe even Wantz.

 

Suarez's underperformance and injury really killed the team in many facets.

[Swordsman78]

43 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

The issue is that Wantz had not exceeded 30 pitches this season, and not very often in 2022.

The ideal scenario was to take him out after the 10 pitch at bat that took him to 26 pitches.   That made it one out and no one on base, ideal time to bring in the lefty Davidson as Cleveland struggles against LHP.

Good point.  IMO with how thin the BP is currently, guys are going to have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. 
 

Better we find out who can deliver now,  than in Aug and Sept 

[Docwaukee]

The biggest problem has been rostering both Davidson and Barria without them having options.  

Neither are high leverage guys and both are ideally long men.  I'm sure they mathed it up before the season and saw a role where two useful innings guys would help but it hasn't worked out that way.  

Barria hasn't pitched since the 5th and Davidson the 10th.  That 4 relief days for Davidson and 9 for Barria.  

They are geared towards very particular opportunities and if those chances don't present themselves, then you either have to decide to use them where they're not in their best spot or you don't use them at all.  

Having one guy who generally pitches when the starter didn't go very long AND the game isn't super close in either direction is already enough of a crap shoot as to when you're going to use them.  Having two of those guys just doesn't work.  

They need to decide to use one of them more regularly or exchange them for someone who can.  Because the collateral effect is that now everyone else is required to go longer.   And what we've seen as a result is a complete lack of flexibility when things are going as planned.  

I feel like the FO is waiting for the number of close games the Angels have had to normalize.  Waiting that out has resulted in putting guys in spots they don't belong or making so they aren't available when they should be with the final outcome of losing too many games they've had a chance to win.  

Being 4th in FIP and 24th in WPA tells us that there's a massive discrepancy between performance and outcomes.  I see that as a construction/management issue.   

[AngelStew43]

2 hours ago, Trendon said:

what makes you think either of them will be better than the current options?

I'd say, see what you have with the current mix, and then go to Yovan/Joyce if it's clear that the current group can't handle it. If you don't give the current mix a shot, how do you know what they are?

Most of them have already shown that they are not our best options.

[BTH]

31 minutes ago, AngelStew43 said:

Most of them have already shown that they are not our best options.

based on what?

10 IP from Herget? 0 IP from Weiss? Wantz has good stats.

[BTH]

46 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

Being 4th in FIP and 24th in WPA tells us that there's a massive discrepancy between performance and outcomes.  I see that as a construction/management issue.   

That is extremely glaring, and a horrible indictment on management.

You can't attribute all that to bad luck and sequencing. At a certain point, there's a problem in the process that's enabling that discrepancy.

[Swordsman78]

24 minutes ago, Trendon said:

That is extremely glaring, and a horrible indictment on management.

You can't attribute all that to bad luck and sequencing. At a certain point, there's a problem in the process that's enabling that discrepancy.

So who do you suggest gets traded and for which reliever available? 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Swordsman78 said:

So who do you suggest gets traded and for which reliever available? 

"a horrible indictment on management."

front office, manager, pitching coach, and the coaching staff deserve blame.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Trendon

[Swordsman78]

Just now, Trendon said:

"a horrible indictment on management."

And here I was giving you credit for being one of the more cerebral posters.   
 

So disappointed you chose to take the easy way out.   

[BTH]

5 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

And here I was giving you credit for being one of the more cerebral posters.   
 

So disappointed you chose to take the easy way out.   

so what do you make of the team's drastic difference in FIP and WPA?

if you have a different explanation, I'm happy to hear it.