The Angels can make history!

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Disagree. A general manager needs legitimate control to fix this mess and the events under Reagins and Dipoto suggest that hasn't been the case with Scioscia as the manager. Regardless, it would be more than nice to have a manager who used and implemented even basic sabermetric theories.

Like defensive shifts?  Or using technology to tell when a pitcher's pitches are losing spin rate?  

[NrM]

I hate Scioscia. 

[2112]

I know that the manager can't hit for the team, can't pitch etc.  but sometimes the change needs to be made.  I think it's time, I know my opinion means exactly nill.

It's just part of baseball.  

[Stradling]

I get that some people hate on Scioscia but this year is possibly the worst example of a year that should be blamed the manager. 

[Oz27]

29 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Like defensive shifts?  Or using technology to tell when a pitcher's pitches are losing spin rate?  

Lots of things ... bullpen and general pitcher use, lineup optimization, less ridiculous bunting, a more analytical-based method of player assessment (to the degree he does that, basically in how players are used) and an openness to using any statistical information provided by the front office.

Quote

I get that some people hate on Scioscia but this year is possibly the worst example of a year that should be blamed the manager. 

There is a difference between "blaming" him and identifying problems which need to be resolved. No manager could have fixed this mess but that doesn't mean the manager is not a problem.

[Stradling]

Ok so those two things I mentioned he does.  He seldom bunts anymore, and they've said earlier this year there's better communication of advanced information. @Inside Pitch Posted a couple days ago a link that's shows Scioscia is above average in bullpen management, which surprised me.  So, if I gave you a pile of shit and asked you to make a delicious meal, could you do it?  That's basically what he has this year.  

[Oz27]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok so those two things I mentioned he does.  He seldom bunts anymore, and they've said earlier this year there's better communication of advanced information. @Inside Pitch Posted a couple days ago a link that's shows Scioscia is above average in bullpen management, which surprised me.  So, if I gave you a pile of shit and asked you to make a delicious meal, could you do it?  That's basically what he has this year.  

We still bunt with a runner on second and nobody out all the damn time, for just one example. Baseball should have moved past that sort of thinking a very long time ago. He does completely stupid things like that consistently, which aren't supported by a shred of evidence. His bullpen management still defies logic - sticking with Street in the closer role, for example, or continuing to use Alvarez against RHH all the time. Them saying there is better communication means what? Scioscia claimed he and Dipoto had a good relationship and that turned out brilliantly, didn't it? The thinking of this team has been far from progressive for a long time and he is a key reason for that. The biggest problem though is that our power structure has been totally out of whack for a long time. That must change.

[Tank]

2 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

They'll draft a toolsy catcher and you'll shut up and like it.

LOL

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Oz27 said:

Disagree. A general manager needs legitimate control to fix this mess and the events under Reagins and Dipoto suggest that hasn't been the case with Scioscia as the manager. Regardless, it would be more than nice to have a manager who used and implemented even basic sabermetric theories.

all things considered this year, oz, how do you think having a different manager would have made this year have a better or at least a different outcome?

remember to factor in all the injuries.

[Oz27]

19 minutes ago, Tank said:

all things considered this year, oz, how do you think having a different manager would have made this year have a better or at least a different outcome?

remember to factor in all the injuries.

Like I said earlier, I'm in no way "blaming" him for this season. If some other guy had taken over three weeks before opening day but everything else was the same, that manager would have to be absolutely brilliant for that to be worth more than four or five wins (I have plucked a number out here FYI, although there is actual science on this stuff). But there are problems present, which were there before this season and will continue to be there after, and that shouldn't be forgotten because this year's team has had some injuries.

[Stradling]

@Oz27 check out this article.  It claims Scioscia was top 3 in bullpen management last year. I am not saying this to defend Mike as much as to show you the advanced stats say he's good compared to his peers in things we all see as weaknesses. 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-playoffs-bullpen-managers-mike-matheny-joe-girardi/

[Tank]

5 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Like I said earlier, I'm in no way "blaming" him for this season. If some other guy had taken over three weeks before opening day but everything else was the same, that manager would have to be absolutely brilliant for that to be worth more than four or five wins (I have plucked a number out here FYI, although there is actual science on this stuff). But there are problems present, which were there before this season and will continue to be there after, and that shouldn't be forgotten because this year's team has had some injuries.

are the players complaining about him and the way he handles things? or is this mostly just fan perception?

"because this year's team has had some injuries." SOME INJURIES?!?!? okay, there must be something wacky in the water in perth if you think we've only had "some" injuries. 

[kevinb]

I think the biggest problem with Mike at the helm is the perceived or actual power struggle he has with the GM. Whether it was Reagens Dipoto or Eppler I'm curious to find out who has the control now and not just what is said in the media but in the front office who has the authority. I don't think a manager is worth more than 1-3 games a year. I think their philosophy and their wants and needs before the year starts has way more to do with the season than in game management. You can't make a guy hit or pitch well during the game as a manager I don't think. But just my opinion. 

[Stradling]

I'm not a huge stat guy, so it always surprises me when I find a stat I'm looking for.  The Angels have more sacrifice hits than any other team in the AL.  What's crazy is it comes to about one every four games.  In my mind that's not a huge deal.  I would also say with certainty that if you were to ask the average guy on here they would assume it's a helluva lot more frequent.  Also since it happens so infrequently it has very little impact on wins and losses. 

[Oz27]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

@Oz27 check out this article.  It claims Scioscia was top 3 in bullpen management last year. I am not saying this to defend Mike as much as to show you the advanced stats say he's good compared to his peers in things we all see as weaknesses. 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-playoffs-bullpen-managers-mike-matheny-joe-girardi/

Yeah I remember that article and I respect Ben Lindbergh, who wrote it, more than practically any other baseball writer (he was one of the guys in the Effectively Wild podcast I posted a few weeks ago about trading everyone). BMAR has some uses but also some significant drawbacks, as Ben alludes to. My complaint about Scioscia's bullpen management rarely focuses on "he should have brought in mediocre middle reliever X over mediocre middle reliever Y who had a more favourable platoon split", which is really the big part of BMAR. It relates more to the overly stubborn use of defined "roles" and the amount of times we see leads blown because the best relievers weren't brought in high leverage situations. Some people want to apply that thinking to the use of a "closer" and ideally I want to as well, but it's mainly the frustration of seeing leads blown in the 6th or 7th because we decided not to bring in a certain guy because his "role" is the 8th inning or whatever it is. It drives me nuts.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I think the biggest problem with Mike at the helm is the perceived or actual power struggle he has with the GM. Whether it was Reagens Dipoto or Eppler I'm curious to find out who has the control now and not just what is said in the media but in the front office who has the authority. I don't think a manager is worth more than 1-3 games a year. I think their philosophy and their wants and needs before the year starts has way more to do with the season than in game management. You can't make a guy hit or pitch well during the game as a manager I don't think. But just my opinion. 

I would agree that with Reagins Scioscia had a lot of power.  With Dipoto he had Arte's ear, but not as much power.  With Eppler I'm guessing it's Eppler's team but he was brought in because he values Scioscia and they all felt they could work well together. 

[kevinb]

I think another thing that bothers people about Mike is his loyalty to veterans over giving chances to young guys. I just remember him playing Finley for the entire season while barely batting above 200 until finally in September making a change. It seems like he does that kind of stuff a lot. I don't watch other teams at all so I'm not sure how other managers do things but. It seems that kind of stuff rubs people and myself the wrong way

[Oz27]

7 minutes ago, Tank said:

are the players complaining about him and the way he handles things? or is this mostly just fan perception?

"because this year's team has had some injuries." SOME INJURIES?!?!? okay, there must be something wacky in the water in perth if you think we've only had "some" injuries. 

You're really misinterpreting what I am trying to say. This is a team which was poorly assembled and then got hit hard by starting pitcher injuries, to the point where there was no chance of contention from May onwards regardless of who the manager was. This team was missing the playoffs regardless of who the manager was, which I have been repeatedly very clear about. But I believe there are massive philosophical and power structure problems which are connected strongly to him and that his presence has and will continue to restrict us from fixing this mess. Any in-game issues I have are secondary to that, but still not insignificant.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Oz27 said:

Yeah I remember that article and I respect Ben Lindbergh, who wrote it, more than practically any other baseball writer (he was one of the guys in the Effectively Wild podcast I posted a few weeks ago about trading everyone). BMAR has some uses but also some significant drawbacks, as Ben alludes to. My complaint about Scioscia's bullpen management rarely focuses on "he should have brought in mediocre middle reliever X over mediocre middle reliever Y who had a more favourable platoon split", which is really the big part of BMAR. It relates more to the overly stubborn use of defined "roles" and the amount of times we see leads blown because the best relievers weren't brought in high leverage situations. Some people want to apply that thinking to the use of a "closer" and ideally I want to as well, but it's mainly the frustration of seeing leads blown in the 6th or 7th because we decided not to bring in a certain guy because his "role" is the 8th inning or whatever it is. It drives me nuts.

Ok so you hate everyone's bullpen management then.  Very few teams bring in their closer before the ninth.  Scioscia does have defined roles, but that usually means late in games that were winning you'll see our best arms.  Sadly it also means late in games where we are down a run or two can become a blowout because it's not the best arms trying to keep a game close.  

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I think another thing that bothers people about Mike is his loyalty to veterans over giving chances to young guys. I just remember him playing Finley for the entire season while barely batting above 200 until finally in September making a change. It seems like he does that kind of stuff a lot. I don't watch other teams at all so I'm not sure how other managers do things but. It seems that kind of stuff rubs people and myself the wrong way

I would say he used to be much worse at this.  Just last year we saw him give a majority of the starts to Carlos Perez over a struggling Iannetta.  

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I would agree that with Reagins Scioscia had a lot of power.  With Dipoto he had Arte's ear, but not as much power.  With Eppler I'm guessing it's Eppler's team but he was brought in because he values Scioscia and they all felt they could work well together. 

I guess I always find it strange when a GM is brought in and doesn't really hire his own guys he just works with what he is given. I don't remember when he was  hired much but I don't recall you hearing a bunch of names being brought in to film roles in the front office other than the token guy here and there. Like Bud Black and Ron etc which seems like it was to appease Mike. Did Eppler hire his own scouting people or personnel guys? It took until after the draft or was it right before the draft that the player personal draft guy was "fired" right? Just from my perspective it seemed just like Eppler wasn't given much say or he was nervous to rock the boat much 

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I would say he used to be much worse at this.  Just last year we saw him give a majority of the starts to Carlos Perez over a struggling Iannetta.  

That was mostly towards the end of the year tho wasn't it?

[Oz27]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok so you hate everyone's bullpen management then.  Very few teams bring in their closer before the ninth.  Scioscia does have defined roles, but that usually means late in games that were winning you'll see our best arms.  Sadly it also means late in games where we are down a run or two can become a blowout because it's not the best arms trying to keep a game close.  

That's not what I said. I can accept the closer thing because nobody has moved to a particularly intelligent use of the bullpen in that way. But there are teams doing smarter things with their middle relievers than "he's out eighth inning guy so he comes in for the eighth inning", even though it means that person isn't being used in the most high leverage situation.

Anyway, like I said, the in-game stuff is far from the biggest reason I think Scioscia needs to go. But it's not a small thing either.

[Stradling]

11 minutes ago, Tank said:

are the players complaining about him and the way he handles things? or is this mostly just fan perception?

"because this year's team has had some injuries." SOME INJURIES?!?!? okay, there must be something wacky in the water in perth if you think we've only had "some" injuries. 

It's fan perception tank.  We are fanstics that watch ever game and so we are super critical of those things.  It's also incredibly easy to place blame on a manager when he makes a call to go to the pen and the move doesn't work.  Also those same fans seem to think if they used some other guy he would have gotten the job done, when in reality he may not have.  

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

That was mostly towards the end of the year tho wasn't it?

It was most of the second half.  Perez didn't start the year in the majors.