Orange County Register: Don't bet on Howie Kendrick return to Angels

[Guest]

Why not Howie? a draft pick?

A cheap ass owner and an incompetent FO.

[Docwaukee]

Howie makes very little sense for this team unless they are all in.  There is no way that I give up a pick for 3yrs of kendrick for his age 32-34 yo seasons when he's already shown some defensive warts.  He was actually very bad this year.  As bad as giavotella.  Granted, I didn't see him as much, and I have to wonder if an element of his defensive slip was related to having a SS he didn't know as well as not having Griffin around.  But there is probably some decline in there. 

 

No pick attached?  We go all in at LF?  Sure.  Otherwise, not worth it.  

[Second Base]

I think the Angels need offensive help, and need to upgrade defensively at 2B.  Regardless of how they do this, it should be done.  Howie solves both. I'm not going to pretend it's the best option, but it also isn't the worst.  

 

Eppler's offseason plan so far doesn't make a damn bit of sense.  So I think whatever logical move we see, you can throw it the heck out the window.  If Howie doesn't make any sense, that just makes it all the more likely to occur from what I've seen. 

[Troll Daddy]

There's not much difference offensively between Heyward and Kendrick. Since we already have a GG right fielder and a defensively bad second baseman ... then Kendrick makes sense and improves the team greatly.

We are in the Trout years ... little chance a draft pick is going to improve the team as much as Kendrick over the next three years.

It's funny we worry about a draft pick (future) ... yet puzzled with the Simmons trade.

[WallyWorld]

As much as everyone wants to dogpile on Giavotella the fact is in his first full MLB season, where he was bounced around the batting order and required to take on many responsibilities he never had before, he still logged the 3rd best OBP of the entire team. We are not talking just the rag tag starting 8 but everyone on the roster that had more than 10 plate appearances.

At least Giavotella is young enough to actually get better, kinda like Howie Kendrick did when he took over for Kennedy. Everyone said Kendrick had no range, a bad glove, terrible throwing arm but in reality what he was compared to a guy with 5 years on the job training. My assumption is Giavotella will improve, the Angels coaching staff actually has had a lot of success with their infielders, Cron even learned what hand to put his glove on.

Here is always my complaint about how players are handled by the Angels and that is they are often put into batting orders they cannot wrap their head around. Perfect example is Erick Aybar that never should have been a leadoff hitter and yet every year since Figgins left, Aybar has been penciled in for too many games as leadoff.

Giavotella was penciled in as the leadoff for 39 too many games and hit .240/.283/.329. In his short MLB career hitting 9th he is actually very productive hitting .293/.339/.426. He is far more comfortable in that role so if he is good at it, take advantage of that and quit forcing into a role he can't handle.

Hopefully next season we don't have to see players forced into unproductive roles because of lineup gaps.

Great post. Agree 100%.

Edited December 28, 2015 by WallyWorld

[Angelfaninidaho]

Figgins was one of the best overall 3B this team has ever had. Giavotella is likely to give us roughly replacement level production this year and was pretty damn awful last year. Those two aren't even in the same universe, let alone worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence.

Also, Giavotella was just as awful defensively before the double vision thing and had a good defensive SS alongside him. You take excuse-making to a new extreme.

2nd best batting average behind Trout, 3rd best OBP on the team, 59 SO's in 453 AB's.  Clutch hitter.

On defense he had 12 errors in 535 TC's..  compared to Aybar's 17 in 620?  He's going to learn alongside the best defensive SS in the game going into only his 2nd full year in the big leagues.

 

I know this is AngelsWhine and all but the hyperbole is boring..

 

By the way, your hero Chone Figgins had 19 errors in his only full year at 2B a year after being an All-Star at 3B. Maybe it's a difficult position. 

[AngelsFanSince86]

2nd best batting average behind Trout, 3rd best OBP on the team, 59 SO's in 453 AB's.  Clutch hitter.

On defense he had 12 errors in 535 TC's..  compared to Aybar's 17 in 620?  He's going to learn alongside the best defensive SS in the game going into only his 2nd full year in the big leagues.

 

I know this is AngelsWhine and all but the hyperbole is boring..

 

By the way, your hero Chone Figgins had 19 errors in his only full year at 2B a year after being an All-Star at 3B. Maybe it's a difficult position. 

 

With how poor the Angels offense was last year this literally means nothing.  Its like saying some catcher is good hitter because his numbers are better than Mathis. Giavotella was solid last year offensively when compared to a bunch of guys who sucked big time.  When compared to the league he was still below average.  And that is his best area.

[tdawg87]

I know this is AngelsWhine

 

I like how you keep saying this like anyone else here but you finds it witty or funny.

Edited December 28, 2015 by tdawg87

[AngelsFanSince86]

As much as everyone wants to dogpile on Giavotella the fact is in his first full MLB season, where he was bounced around the batting order and required to take on many responsibilities he never had before, he still logged the 3rd best OBP of the entire team. We are not talking just the rag tag starting 8 but everyone on the roster that had more than 10 plate appearances.

 

At least Giavotella is young enough to actually get better, kinda like Howie Kendrick did when he took over for Kennedy. Everyone said Kendrick had no range, a bad glove, terrible throwing arm but in reality what he was compared to a guy with 5 years on the job training. My assumption is Giavotella will improve, the Angels coaching staff actually has had a lot of success with their infielders, Cron even learned what hand to put his glove on.

 

Here is always my complaint about how players are handled by the Angels and that is they are often put into batting orders they cannot wrap their head around. Perfect example is Erick Aybar that never should have been a leadoff hitter and yet every year since Figgins left, Aybar has been penciled in for too many games as leadoff.

 

Giavotella was penciled in as the leadoff for 39 too many games and hit .240/.283/.329. In his short MLB career hitting 9th he is actually very productive hitting .293/.339/.426. He is far more comfortable in that role so if he is good at it, take advantage of that and quit forcing into a role he can't handle.

 

Hopefully next season we don't have to see players forced into unproductive roles because of lineup gaps.

 

As just stated, comparing his OBP to the bums that we called a lineup is pointless.  It really shows how uninspiring he is when instead of using his actual numbers you try to boost him by comparing him to other weak hitters.  

 

Howie is a poor comparison.  Howie came in at age 22 and posted an OPS better than anything Giavotella has ever done.  He also, despite what people think, posted a positive defensive WAR and positive DRS.  Howie was also faster and could steal some bases.  Not a huge threat, but 5-10 bases a year compared to 2.  Howie was a better player at age 22 in every facet of the game than Gia has ever been.  Even though Gia is in his prime. In his first year, Howie was 50% more valuable than Gia was last year (1.5 WAR vs 1.0 WAR) in almost half the games.  Point being, if you have a guy with the offensive upside Howie had you ignore the defense and hope he gets better.  And Howie's defense wasn't nearly as bad as Gias to begin with. 

 

I agree with the rest of what you said, but come on guys.  Gia is not good.  Most of his value lies in his clutch hits which could very easily be an aberration.  If his defense improves he is still one of the worst defensive 2B in MLB.  Maybe, just maybe if he stays slotted in the 9 spot and his defense actually improves he can be a 2 WAR player.  Thats a huge maybe.  

 

That being said, I'd still go with him over Howie.  The draft pick for someone that has shown decline and will cost over $10 million a year is just not even close to worth it.  I'd rather have Escobar switch between 2B and 3B while giving Cowart or Kubitza a chance to prove themselves and slotting Gia in a 2B when Escobar is at 3B.

[AngelStew43]

I would rather Kubitza and Cowart battle it out over 3B, and platoon at 2B with some combination of Escobar, Kubitza, and Giovatella. 

 

I understand Arte's position about wanting to get so much dead money off the books. 

 

Besides, any team with Mike Trout on it has a better than average chance to win.

[AngelsFanSince86]

There's not much difference offensively between Heyward and Kendrick. Since we already have a GG right fielder and a defensively bad second baseman ... then Kendrick makes sense and improves the team greatly.

We are in the Trout years ... little chance a draft pick is going to improve the team as much as Kendrick over the next three years.

It's funny we worry about a draft pick (future) ... yet puzzled with the Simmons trade.

 

Ha!  Only about 25 points in OBP, 5 HRs, 10 doubles, and 15 SBs.  Along with the fact that Heyward is hitting his prime while Howie is past it.

 

And the pick will definitely help.  How much did Joe Panik help the Giants in 2014?  That was his 4th year since being drafted.  Since they are already thinking more about the last 2 years of Trouts contract than the first 3 then that draft pick is even more valuable.  If they were going to waste it why wouldn't they use it to get a younger, better player like Heyward or Upton.  Essentially those are the types of players you hope your first round pick turns into.  Not a 32 yo Howie Kendrick.  Howie isn't exactly going to be cheap.  

[Second Base]

I like how you keep saying this like anyone else here but you finds it witty or funny.

If it were "Angels-wine" I'd be tempted to purchase it as a Christmas gift for my wife and I.

[itsKnoppUitsme]

If it were "Angels-wine" I'd be tempted to purchase it as a Christmas gift for my wife and I.

You must really like the taste of "Sour Grapes"

[Angelfaninidaho]

I like how you keep saying this like anyone else here but you finds it witty or funny.

Is that English?  What the f*ck are you trying to say?

[tdawg87]

It's Spanish.

[Hollyw00d]

You must really like the taste of "Sour Grapes"

I love sour grapes

[Oz27]

2nd best batting average behind Trout, 3rd best OBP on the team, 59 SO's in 453 AB's. Clutch hitter.

On defense he had 12 errors in 535 TC's.. compared to Aybar's 17 in 620? He's going to learn alongside the best defensive SS in the game going into only his 2nd full year in the big leagues.

I know this is AngelsWhine and all but the hyperbole is boring..

By the way, your hero Chone Figgins had 19 errors in his only full year at 2B a year after being an All-Star at 3B. Maybe it's a difficult position.

It's firstly hard to believe this is a serious post and secondly that I'm using my time to debunk its nonsense, but here we go anyway.

Let's start with Giavotella's offensive value. 35 2B had 400 or more PA last year and Johnny was one of them. On that list he ranks 25th in wOBA, 20th in wRC+ and 20th in oWAR. So compared to other 2B he wasn't bad offensively, but wasn't particularly good either. Cherry-picking stats and comparing him to the craptastic bunch of misfits we put together is useless for any remotely objective analysis.

So if Giavotella was average defensively we would have a pretty good 2B but unfortunately he isn't even close. 34 players logged 500 or more innings at 2B last year and Gia was one of them. Of them he was next to last in UZR, equal last in DRS and third last in FanGraphs overall defensive assessment rating. In all of those categories he was behind guys considered really poor defensively, such as Daniel Murphy.

Overall, FanGraphs has him at 26th out of 35 (using that 400 PA threshold again) with 1.1 WAR. The guys he's ahead of are mostly the ones we would be horrified if we acquired, like Eric Sogard or Omar Infante. Using the Baseball Reference WAR measurement, Giavotella was 1.0 WAR. Whichever one you prefer, that refers to a below average player and a pretty damn weak total from someone who played 129 games and logged 500 PA. So as astounding as it is that this argument still has to be made, Giavotella is not very good and 2B should be upgraded as our second largest priority.

As for your dumb little dig about Figgins, he was our regular 3B for three years and averaged nearly 4.5 WAR there per year. So my original point that it was laughable to compare Gia and Figgins stands. And yes, I'm sure playing 2B is very hard. So is hitting, pitching and playing every other position. But most teams have a better 2B than Gia, including nearly all of the teams with any ambition to win. So the "it's hard" explanation is about as useful as tits on a bull.

[Second Base]

Personally I've always preferred the taste of crow.  As in others eating it.  Oddly enough, the doubters disappear when they've been proving wrong.  Accountability is not the strong suit of folks these days. 

[Angelfaninidaho]

So our rookie 2B wasn't the best defensive player on the team and was one of the better offensively.  Great.  Our veteran catcher was the worst catcher in the MLB behind Seattle's and our veteran LF was a coke head a-hole who couldn't stay on the field.  

 

This guy doesn't deserve the BS he gets here..

"That's one of the more frustrating parts," Giavotella said. "I can't do anything to speed up the process. There's no toughening it out. I can't see. I'd like to think that I'm a fairly tough person and play through a lot of pain, but there's no going out there and toughing it through this kind of injury."

Giavotella woke up two weeks ago seeing double and "went into full panic mode." He laid back down hoping it would go away, then rushed to the hospital when it didn't. The Angels placed Giavotella on the disabled list on Aug. 24 but didn't reveal specifics of his illness, largely because of health-information privacy laws but also because doctors were still trying to figure out what was wrong.

[Angelfaninidaho]

It's firstly hard to believe this is a serious post and secondly that I'm using my time to debunk its nonsense, but here we go anyway.

Giavotella is not very good and 2B should be upgraded as our second largest priority.

 

It's our second largest priority now...  after we cleaned up the catcher position, replaced our FA 3rd basement, randomly added a better SS, and replaced an inept coaching staff.  And LF is still a total disaster, which I assume you are alluding to.  So really 2B was about 6th in order of importance.  Which seems about right.  

[Oz27]

It's our second largest priority now... after we cleaned up the catcher position, replaced our FA 3rd basement, randomly added a better SS, and replaced an inept coaching staff. And LF is still a total disaster, which I assume you are alluding to. So really 2B was about 6th in order of importance. Which seems about right.

They have treated it as such but they were entirely wrong to do so. 2B was and is away more pressing need than anything other than LF.

[NachoPop]

Has anyone actually seen or heard anything from Escobar since being traded? When Simmons came over i saw a couple of videos and quotes but none from him. There was a quote from the angels about Escobar currently being their starting 3B but is he actully happy doing that? I know he did it last year but that was out of necessity. He did spring at 2B didnt he? Heard anything about wether he'd actually preffer that? Not ultimately his choice I knoe but like some others I'd like to see him there.

[tdawg87]

So our rookie 2B wasn't the best defensive player on the team

 

Well no. In fact, he was one of the worst defensive players in all of baseball.

[Angelfaninidaho]

They have treated it as such but they were entirely wrong to do so. 2B was and is away more pressing need than anything other than LF.

More than replacing Iannetta and our FA 3rd baseman?  That's just wrong.  Gia was Ted Williams compared to Iannetta last year and Freese is a FA.  They had to be replaced 2nd and 3rd.  At least we agree on the LF disaster being top priority.

[Angelfaninidaho]

Well no. In fact, he was one of the worst defensive players in all of baseball.

Are errors still a defensive statistic?