Greece

[Tank]

for you financial guys out there . . . 

 

in the US we as citizens are encouraged/expected to carry a certain amount of debt. does this play in to the situation at all in greece? i don't really get a lot of this stuff, tbh, but i wonder if a country that runs up so much debt like we do is setting itself up for the same thing to happen.

[Blarg]

According to this chart (not sure on its accuracy) our current debt as a percentage of GDP is 102.6%.  Looks like we had lows around 30% in 1975 and 1982.  We were at around 62% in 2008 and it has exploded from there.

 

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GFDEGDQ188S

 

Thanks Obama!

[fan_since79]

I wonder what Fan thinks about our defense budget and items like the F-35

 

There's an enormous amount of waste in the Defense department. That being said, I'm not in favor of a miniscule military, which seems to be the way we're heading. There has to be a middle ground somewhere. We could cut it down quite a bit and still be strong.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

This is the silly part. The F-35 Fighter jet has run up a $400 billion dollar debt and instead of buying another toy we didn't really need we could have bought Greece, for less.

 

Real estate is all about buy low, sell high.

[HaloFan85]

What's happened to Greece and to most of the European Union can be considered predatory lending.  The IMF and European Central Bank (Europe's Fed) over-lend to all the countries with their worthless funny money to the point they know it'll never be repaid.  Its purpose is to create an enormous and unpayable debt.  This forces these countries to sell off their 'hard' assets to the corporations for pennies on the dollar.  They'd rather be repaid in resources than with their own worthless money.  The only way they'll accept their own money for repayment is by creating more debt.  That's been one of the main key issues with the Greek government.  They want to use any new loans/bailout to invest in their economy and create more jobs whereas the bankers only want them to use the new loans to repay old loans.  Also, the reason why Greece closed the banks is because they don't have the liquidity.  The IMF and ECB are refusing to give them cash for withdrawal which gave them no choice but to close the banks.  The IMF and ECB are obviously trying to create a panic to force the government go back on their word and accept a shitty deal that will impose more austerity, higher taxes, and more cuts to pensions.

 

It's all about the privatization of resources and economies.  It's basically a looting process by the bankers and corporations.  Take it from the "hitman" himself.  From an interview last year with the former economic hitman:

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/26112-an-economic-hit-man-speaks-out-john-perkins-on-how-greece-has-fallen-victim-to-economic-hit-men

[Jay]

To some extent it favors the EU (Germany) when the Euro takes such a hit as a result of all the Greece drama.  The weak Euro allows Germany to increase exports.

 

Also another issue is corruption in Greece.  If the ECB does provide a cash infusion how much of that will be directly wired to bank accounts in Switzerland and Cayman?

 

But there is a huge dependency class in Greece and who knows how to wean those people off of the government dole.  In that regard the U.S. is on the same path.

[HaloFan85]

If they are in fact able to increase exports because of it, it's still not nearly enough to make up for their lost exports to Russia resulting from the bullshit sanction game we (according to Biden) "embarrassed" and pressured the EU into doing.

 

They estimate the EU can lose up to $100 billion euros this year due to these sanctions because of lost exports, and the majority of that will come from Germany.  The irony of it all - the USA has INCREASED exports to Russia this year.  Things that make you go Hmmm............ if your the EU.

 

If any money were to leave Greece, it would be mostly from the people taking out their 'own' money and converting it into other currencies and depositing it into foreign banks outside of Greece, and also to buy up hard assets like cars and boats.  However, that can be something the Greek government might be encouraging as this article suggested a week or two ago:

 

 

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/29/the-greek-debt-crisis-and-crashing-markets/print

 

 

"Late Friday night and into the early Saturday morning hours, Greeks ran to the ATM machines to convert their checking and savings deposits into euro notes, expecting that the end game would involve a likely 30% depreciation of the drachma – and that indeed, the ECB would stop lending to support Greek banks (the only role the ECB wanted to play).

 

Syriza had no love for the banks. They were the vehicles through which the oligarchs controlled the Greek economy, after all. For a month, they had been discussing how to separate the banks into “good bank” and “bad bank,” either nationalizing them (wiping out stockholders) or creating a Public Option alternative.

 

Most important, once out of the eurozone, Greece could create its own Treasury to monetize its spending. The Institutions called this “scrip,” but the Greeks could establish it as their national currency. They would escape from euro-austerity – except, of course, to the extent that the ECB waged economic war on Greece by imposing its own capital controls.

 

By going through the sham negotiations with The Institutions, Syriza gave Greeks enough time to protect what savings and cash they had – by converting these bank deposits into euro notes, automobiles and “hard assets” (even boats).

 

Businesses borrowed from local banks where they could, and moved their money into eurozone banks or even better, into dollar and sterling assets. Their intention is to pay back the banks in depreciated drachma, pocketing a 30% capital gain."

[HaloFan85]

Tsipras and his Syriza party just pulled the rug out from under their people's feet.  I'm sure some have heard by now that Greece has agreed to ALL demands from the troika which for the most part is privatization, privatization, and more privatization  And did I mention privatization?  Just like the "hitman" said was the plan for Greece, and the rest of the world for that matter, all along.

 

Anyway, here are some links:

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-leaders-reach-unanimous-agreement-on-greece-says-eus-tusk-1436771076

 

On privatization:

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/07/13/how-will-the-greek-privatization-work-the-short-answer/

 

Good overall assessment of what just happened:

 

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/13/the-problem-of-greece-is-not-only-a-tragedy-it-is-a-lie/

[Hollyw00d]

Sucks to be Greek.

Then again, the USA is currently walking the same path

[Jay]

Greek government suffers defections as austerity vote looms

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greek-government-suffers-defections-austerity-121037463.html

 

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greece's prime minister was fighting to keep his government intact in the face of outrage over an austerity bill that parliament must pass Wednesday night if the country is to start negotiations on a new bailout and avoid financial collapse.

 

The raft of consumer tax increases and pension reforms will condemn Greeks to years of more economic hardship and has fueled anger among the governing left-wing Syriza party.

 

Civil servants protested with a 24-hour strike that disrupted public transport and shut down state-run services across the country. Thousands marched through central Athens in an anti-austerity protest timed to coincide with the parliamentary procedure Wednesday evening.

 

The bill is expected to pass with votes in favor by pro-European opposition parties. But large numbers of Syriza lawmakers are almost certain to vote against the package.

[Hollyw00d]

Good.

[juansavage1]

What's happened to Greece and to most of the European Union can be considered predatory lending. The IMF and European Central Bank (Europe's Fed) over-lend to all the countries with their worthless funny money to the point they know it'll never be repaid. Its purpose is to create an enormous and unpayable debt. This forces these countries to sell off their 'hard' assets to the corporations for pennies on the dollar. They'd rather be repaid in resources than with their own worthless money. The only way they'll accept their own money for repayment is by creating more debt. That's been one of the main key issues with the Greek government. They want to use any new loans/bailout to invest in their economy and create more jobs whereas the bankers only want them to use the new loans to repay old loans. Also, the reason why Greece closed the banks is because they don't have the liquidity. The IMF and ECB are refusing to give them cash for withdrawal which gave them no choice but to close the banks. The IMF and ECB are obviously trying to create a panic to force the government go back on their word and accept a shitty deal that will impose more austerity, higher taxes, and more cuts to pensions.

It's all about the privatization of resources and economies. It's basically a looting process by the bankers and corporations. Take it from the "hitman" himself. From an interview last year with the former economic hitman:

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/26112-an-economic-hit-man-speaks-out-john-perkins-on-how-greece-has-fallen-victim-to-economic-hit-men

Why doesn't anybody say this before people borrow the money? "No, you can't borrow this money because they're taking advantage of you."

[Amazing Larry]

Why doesn't anybody say this before people borrow the money? "No, you can't borrow this money because they're taking advantage of you."

61% of the Greek voters did last week. What I want to know is what led Tsipras handing over the keys to the country to a bunch of crooks.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Lawrence

[arch stanton]

61% of the Greek voters did last week. What I want to know is what led Tsipras handing over the keys to the country to a bunch of crooks.

He's one of them?

[juansavage1]

61% of the Greek voters did last week. What I want to know is what led Tsipras handing over the keys to the country to a bunch of crooks.

I kind of meant before they default as well.

Where were the socialists in 2002 warning people and countries not to borrow money?