The Angels can make history!

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

Mike isn't bad he just has issues. On a yearly basis how many wins does a manager get you a year? Does a bad manager make or miss the playoffs with the same team?

I believe the difference between a good and bad manager is about 3-5 wins, tops. 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

It happens all the time in sports. Isn't A Rod getting the same treatment special assistant something something title. I'm guess there's a lot of ex players who get this kind of stuff. They don't want to leave the baseball brotherhood. Why would they. It's what they grew up playing and they have I'm guessing life long relationships with ownerships front offices players and managers 

ARod is getting that to save face because they owe him for next season.  Chavez was hired because they see something in him. 

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

Arte and Mike had nothing to do with his draft strategy, had nothing to do with trading Grichuk and Bourjos for Freese and Salas, had nothing to do with signing Blanton. 

As far as how he will do over there, I guess we will see.  I can tell you some of their fans already don't like what he's done with the minor leagues, but I don't follow closely so I don't know what those things are.  

I agree hated both those moves. But when being forced Pujols and Hamilton and having a constrained budget to work with maybe that's the kind of moves he had to make. Weren't you the one who was arguing that the Freese trade wasn't that bad or was that someone else. That Freese was actually good during his time here? 

[Oz27]

Just now, Kevinb said:

Mike isn't bad he just has issues. On a yearly basis how many wins does a manager get you a year? Does a bad manager make or miss the playoffs with the same team?

It's an inexact science and hard to say for sure but the difference between a good manager and a bad manager is far from insignificant in terms of wins. Less than 10, I'm sure. But still not an insignificant amount. The Nationals' decision to fire Matt Williams and replace him (any other human being would have done) was a big boost to their chances of winning.

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

ARod is getting that to save face because they owe him for next season.  Chavez was hired because they see something in him. 

He was hired with the Yankees after retiring. But he also played 2 years there so maybe he had a relationship. And you don't know why he was hired so all we are doing is assuming. It's not like he got some big hire it's a special assistant which who the heck knows what they are doing over there with that title. It's not like they hired him once retired to be baseball president. Isn't Greg Maddux still a special assistant somewhere? 

[kevinb]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I believe the difference between a good and bad manager is about 3-5 wins, tops. 

Do you think a good, average and bad manager with same a playoff team makes the playoffs with any of those types of managers listed above

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I agree hated both those moves. But when being forced Pujols and Hamilton and having a constrained budget to work with maybe that's the kind of moves he had to make. Weren't you the one who was arguing that the Freese trade wasn't that bad or was that someone else. That Freese was actually good during his time here? 

He wasn't forced to sign Albert.  I didn't argue it was a good trade.  I would say Freese is a better defender than Escobar, and I say that knowing Freese is bad defensively.  Freese did have about a .350 OBP here which is good. I wouldn't have minded him coming back.  Escobar fits the team better because we needed a lead off hitter.  

[bloodbrother]

When you hire a new GM, a team usually leaves it up to him to find his head coach/manager. Angels have cycled through 3 GM's now without following this formula and with the contract that Arte dished out to him, no manager has as much leeway in the game than Mike. Imagine being a new GM coming in and realizing your deal with the team is dwarfed by the commitment that Sosh was given

I'm not blaming Mike for this as I believe the main issue is Arte. There may be a better relationship with Eppler/Sosh than there was with Dipoto/Sosh and Eppler may be calling the shots, but he's calling the shots under a structure that Arte has put in place. This off-season will be pretty telling IMO with regards to how Eppler will be allowed to run the team. With all the money the Angels are freeing up, I can see Arte pushing Eppler to go out and spend it all in a dreadful market in desperation of trying to cobble together a team hoping to compete.

[Oz27]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I believe the difference between a good and bad manager is about 3-5 wins, tops. 

That is still enormous. Teams are paying $7-8 million per WAR at the moment.

[Oz27]

Just now, bloodbrother said:

When you hire a new GM, a team usually leaves it up to him to find his head coach/manager. Angels have cycled through 3 GM's now without following this formula and with the contract that Arte dished out to him, no manager has as much leeway in the game than Mike. Imagine being a new GM coming in and realizing your deal with the team is dwarfed by the commitment that Sosh was given

I'm not blaming Mike for this as I believe the main issue is Arte. There may be a better relationship with Eppler/Sosh than there was with Dipoto/Sosh and Eppler may be calling the shots, but he's calling the shots under a structure that Arte has put in place. This off-season will be pretty telling IMO with regards to how Eppler will be allowed to run the team. With all the money the Angels are freeing up, I can see Arte pushing Eppler to go out and spend it all in a dreadful market in desperation of trying to cobble together a team hoping to compete.

Well said. It's pretty freaking terrifying that we will blow our load this offseason in a terrible market.

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

He wasn't forced to sign Albert.  I didn't argue it was a good trade.  I would say Freese is a better defender than Escobar, and I say that knowing Freese is bad defensively.  Freese did have about a .350 OBP here which is good. I wouldn't have minded him coming back.  Escobar fits the team better because we needed a lead off hitter.  

From all information that has come in on those two deals. It seems like Arte was the one doing the negotiations on Hamilton and Pujols and as much power as we want a GM to have it still is the owners team and he can do and say what he wants and sign who he wants. 

Also if Freeze wasn't that bad of a signing than you can't complain about it. And say it was a bad trade. 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, bloodbrother said:

When you hire a new GM, a team usually leaves it up to him to find his head coach/manager. Angels have cycled through 3 GM's now without following this formula and with the contract that Arte dished out to him, no manager has as much leeway in the game than Mike. Imagine being a new GM coming in and realizing your deal with the team is dwarfed by the commitment that Sosh was given

I'm not blaming Mike for this as I believe the main issue is Arte. There may be a better relationship with Eppler/Sosh than there was with Dipoto/Sosh and Eppler may be calling the shots, but he's calling the shots under a structure that Arte has put in place. This off-season will be pretty telling IMO with regards to how Eppler will be allowed to run the team. With all the money the Angels are freeing up, I can see Arte pushing Eppler to go out and spend it all in a dreadful market in desperation of trying to cobble together a team hoping to compete.

And if Eppler spends all the money this year you will hear me talk about him the same way I talk about Jerry in the most important respect.  He has to be able to talk sense into Arte.  Stoneman could, a good GM has to be able to put things in perspective for the owner.  

[CaliAngel]

Kevinb you are absolutely a breath of fresh air on these forums and I appreciate your opinions and commentary.

On another topic: Who would possibly want to buy this team right now?

And if nobody wants to, Skip ain't leaving.

Such a clusterf**k of failure on so many levels for so many years. With so much money flushed down the toilet.

 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

From all information that has come in on those two deals. It seems like Arte was the one doing the negotiations on Hamilton and Pujols and as much power as we want a GM to have it still is the owners team and he can do and say what he wants and sign who he wants. 

Also if Freeze wasn't that bad of a signing than you can't complain about it. And say it was a bad trade. 

Yes of course I can say a guy we got wasn't bad but it was still a bad trade.  If we traded Trout and got Machado and Machado had a great year it would still be a bad trade. 

[kevinb]

4 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

That is still enormous. Teams are paying $7-8 million per WAR at the moment.

I think they are more 1-3 wins a year but the difference between a good and a bad GM is making the playoffs and winning the World Series and building long term and sustainable success rather than game to game success they have a big picture mindset a manager should only be focused on game to game

[Stradling]

Just now, CaliAngel said:

Kevinb you are absolutely a breath of fresh air on these forums and I appreciate your opinions and commentary.

On another topic: Who would possibly want to buy this team right now?

And if nobody wants to, Skip ain't leaving.

Such a clusterf**k of failure on so many levels for so many years. With so much money flushed down the toilet.

 

The good news is the one who's flushing all the money down the toilet is the same one who is at fault.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

I think they are more 1-3 wins a year but the difference between a good and a bad GM is making the playoffs and winning the World Series and building long term and sustainable success rather than game to game success they have a big picture mindset a manager should only be focused on game to game

I agree with this.  

[CaliAngel]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

The good news is the one who's flushing all the money down the toilet is the same one who is at fault.  

Sure is. Except  the worst tragedy is Trout, one of the greatest baseball talents of all time, paying for it with his time.

And so are the fans.

And so is Pujols.

Do we dump this all on Arte?

*edit* Keep in mind I can't remember the last time I saw Arte's face, or him making an announcement, or being around in the entire organization for at least the past year or so. I can't imagine he's taking it lightly either, but man...freakin bummer all around.

[Stradling]

Just now, CaliAngel said:

Sure is. Except  the worst tragedy is Trout, one of the greatest baseball talents of all time, paying for it with his time.

And so are the fans.

And so is Pujols.

Do we dump this all on Arte?

Arte, Jerry and Mike in that order.  

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Yes of course I can say a guy we got wasn't bad but it was still a bad trade.  If we traded Trout and got Machado and Machado had a great year it would still be a bad trade. 

I agree it's a bad trade but really in hindsight it seems they were in the win now mentality and we will never know if that is on Arte pushing for it that way. I also wonder how much influence Pujols had on trying to get one of "his" guys here from St Louis and having the influence and relationship with Arte if that was something or if it's just something from an outside looking in it seemed like. Again I disliked the trade but there are a ton of factors that go into it. And I think the big issue is Arte and his win now mentality rather than build for future success and long term sustainability. But I guess time will tell on that one. 

[Stradling]

It does suck that we aren't great right now.  We only had one great year with Mike so far and he and the rest of the offense was asleep during their playoff series.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

I agree it's a bad trade but really in hindsight it seems they were in the win now mentality and we will never know if that is on Arte pushing for it that way. I also wonder how much influence Pujols had on trying to get one of "his" guys here from St Louis and having the influence and relationship with Arte if that was something or if it's just something from an outside looking in it seemed like. Again I disliked the trade but there are a ton of factors that go into it. And I think the big issue is Arte and his win now mentality rather than build for future success and long term sustainability. But I guess time will tell on that one. 

This trade is on Jerry, we have zero idea if Albert influenced a trade but if he did that still falls on Jerry.  

[kevinb]

I would really like to know how Mike deals with the offseason plans and if it's on him or if it's on the GM. There's one thing I put on Mike this off season and that's Richards injury. Whatever he told him and then seeing him come to camp that hot he should have put him on the bench and slowed him down. You can't let a pitcher do that in spring training and that's something a manager can have a huge impact on. 

[Oz27]

10 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I think they are more 1-3 wins a year but the difference between a good and a bad GM is making the playoffs and winning the World Series and building long term and sustainable success rather than game to game success they have a big picture mindset a manager should only be focused on game to game

Typically, I would agree with that. By making Scioscia the one with the power we've made it so that dynamic doesn't apply to us. We gave all our power to one guy and we sure as hell didn't pick the right person to give it to.

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This trade is on Jerry, we have zero idea if Albert influenced a trade but if he did that still falls on Jerry.  

Agreed it's on Jerry but my only thought is  we don't know if it's being influenced from the top down and that might have been a reason for the departure like he did. It could be simply making assumptions but in my head it was somewhere in the middle of he was tired of being "bullied" into making deals he didn't want and was no longer wanting to be the middle man. And saw that he was gonna be let go at the end of the year with all the "fighting" internally so decided to bail early