Re: Marte/Cron/Valbuena

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

I appreciate your explanation.  My point was really more along the lines of. . .if your team has Escobar batting 3rd, your offensive lineup probably sucks.

I get what you are both saying -- Ettin is saying that in a theoretical (saber) sense, he fits as a number three...  You're saying that in the traditional sense any team batting him 3rd is effed.  Both of you are right from your respective POVs.

I think Ettin's point was that while flawed, Escobar has some unique/specialized traits (as a hitter), that actually fit in well with what we have...    Ultimately that's also the problem, he's likely more valuable to the Angels than he would be to most teams.

[nikkachez]

Trade Escobar for anything you can get, platoon Valbuena and Marte. Escobar's a one trick pony and don't think his .350 OBP and negative baserunning and defense is enough to make up for Revere/Maybin's .320-.330 OBP and + baserunning and average to + defense. 

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I appreciate your explanation.  My point was really more along the lines of. . .if your team has Escobar batting 3rd, your offensive lineup probably sucks.

This

Your 3rd place hitter should not be a singles hitter.

[totdprods]

I'd still keep an eye on the Rays. They could use corner-infield help, power, and club control, and have pitching to deal from. Marte and Cron fit them well.

We all fawn over Odorizzi, but Cobb, Ramirez, and Andriese still could be of interest. Relief options as well.

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I get what you are both saying -- Ettin is saying that in a theoretical (saber) sense, he fits as a number three...  You're saying that in the traditional sense any team batting him 3rd is effed.  Both of you are right from your respective POVs.

I think Ettin's point was that while flawed, Escobar has some unique/specialized traits (as a hitter), that actually fit in well with what we have...    Ultimately that's also the problem, he's likely more valuable to the Angels than he would be to most teams.

Musing's optimizer has Escobar batting lead off and Trout second with Pujols or Cron 3/5 and Calhoun 4th.  

As an aside, if you replace Escobar with Marte (just theoretical TD don't get upset), and you use last years numbers, they are virtually identical from an offensive value standpoint.  But that assumes Escboar is going to roll out a .355 obp again and Marte a .790 ops.  

If Valbuena could play 2b, which I wouldn't mind seeing vs. rhers, it would increase our offense by 0.15 rpg over Espinosa.  That's 24 runs over the course of the season.  Does Espinosa make that 2 wins up defensively?  Not from what i've seen so fare.  

If you take Escobar out of the lineup for Marte, then the optimizer has Trout leading off.  Followed by Calhoun or Valbuena at 2 and 4, cron/pujols at 3/5 and then maybin and simmons are interchangeable followed by Marte.  

 

[Docwaukee]

BTW, I wouldn't trade anyone just yet.  I've got a feeling that one of Escobar and Espinosa is going to struggle.  Giving us replacement options.  

[ettin]

4 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I appreciate your explanation.  My point was really more along the lines of. . .if your team has Escobar batting 3rd, your offensive lineup probably sucks.

Personally I think you're diminishing the value of his bat a little too much (I'm not saying it's fantastic mind you just that it does have value). Over the last three seasons with a minimum of 300 plate appearances, Escobar, on a per plate appearance basis, is ranked 11th out of 475 qualified hitters in total singles plus doubles. The guy makes good, reliable contact.

On top of that having him hit behind one or two (in the case of him hitting in the 3-spot) quality stolen base threats actually makes a lot of sense in terms of his offensive skill set (lots of hits, not as many walks).

As a tactical fit in a lineup, Yunel has his place if you put him behind or in front of the right hitters. Just saying "He's hitting 3rd so your lineup sucks" is certainly correct if there are eight 75 wRC+ hitters surrounding him but if you have quality run producers you'll find a good spot for Escobar that makes use of his particular hitting approach (which he is good at).

Side note: Ben Revere is 6th on that same list. It would not be at all surprising to see Escobar and Revere splitting time vs. LHP and RHP respectively during the season out of the top 3 spots in the lineup.

[totdprods]

26 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

BTW, I wouldn't trade anyone just yet.  I've got a feeling that one of Escobar and Espinosa is going to struggle.  Giving us replacement options.  

I'm with ya - I like having this depth, and think Escobar's not going to be a part of this time come July, either by way of trade or release, but it wouldn't surprise me if something went down with Cron or Marte. 

Didnt have very high expectations for our pitching this spring, and while I'm satisfied with where they're at and am a fan of the 'wait and see' approach we're taking with our collection of arms, I could see Eppler swinging a deal still.

[HaloNArizona]

45 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

BTW, I wouldn't trade anyone just yet.  I've got a feeling that one of Escobar and Espinosa is going to struggle.  Giving us replacement options.  

Espinosa is going to be Adam Dunn Light....25 HRs and a low 220s BA.

The board will explode as MS runs him out daily.

[totdprods]

4 minutes ago, HaloNArizona said:

Espinosa is going to be Adam Dunn Light....25 HRs and a low 220s BA.

The board will explode as MS runs him out daily.

If he plays great defense and runs the bases well, as he should, I'll be thrilled with anything around a .680-.720 OPS. That will be leaps and bounds over our last two years.

[Troll Daddy]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

Musing's optimizer has Escobar batting lead off and Trout second with Pujols or Cron 3/5 and Calhoun 4th.  

As an aside, if you replace Escobar with Marte (just theoretical TD don't get upset), and you use last years numbers, they are virtually identical from an offensive value standpoint.  But that assumes Escboar is going to roll out a .355 obp again and Marte a .790 ops.  

If Valbuena could play 2b, which I wouldn't mind seeing vs. rhers, it would increase our offense by 0.15 rpg over Espinosa.  That's 24 runs over the course of the season.  Does Espinosa make that 2 wins up defensively?  Not from what i've seen so fare.  

If you take Escobar out of the lineup for Marte, then the optimizer has Trout leading off.  Followed by Calhoun or Valbuena at 2 and 4, cron/pujols at 3/5 and then maybin and simmons are interchangeable followed by Marte.  

 

I always want what's best for the team. 

I like Marte but he's still basically a rookie with only around 300 AB's. I see him as a utility player at best. Escobar is much better with the bat. He hits to all fields and hits for average. Personally, I think Escobar is also a better defender.

I don't see much value in Marte ... I do like Valbuena at third over Marte. 

I believe Eppler has a much better vision at determining lineups than some garbage optimizer.