Gameday Thread: 8/29 Reds @ Angels 7:05

[eaterfan]

Why would anyone move Cowart to a new position to keep Escobar at 3B? Escobar can be terrible at 2B just as easily as he can be terrible at 3B. Let Cowart be great at 3B compared to hopefully average at 2B. 

I see no reason that if you want to keep Marte and Escobar in the lineup that it shouldn't be 2B Escobar, 3B Cowart and Marte in LF.

It seems like Cowart is too big to play 2B after watching him and it's wasting his arm.

[DMVol]

4 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Why would anyone move Cowart to a new position to keep Escobar at 3B? Escobar can be terrible at 2B just as easily as he can be terrible at 3B. Let Cowart be great at 3B compared to hopefully average at 2B. 

I see no reason that if you want to keep Marte and Escobar in the lineup that it shouldn't be 2B Escobar, 3B Cowart and Marte in LF.

It seems like Cowart is too big to play 2B after watching him and it's wasting his arm.

Scioscia has said Escobar is the 3bman when he gets back....you may disagree with it but that appears to be what he is going to do...Escobar hasn't played 2b since 2007.....

[totdprods]

14 hours ago, totdprods said:

Cowart probably plays second primarily this September. They're not gonna boot Escobar for a month. It's a lost season, who cares if we have shitty defense at third for another couple weeks? If Cowart shows enough with his bat, it gives them a little more safeguard to move Escobar this winter. I don't think they will go into the offseason looking to move him, but I imagine he will be discussed quite a bit.

If they don't move Escobar, and frankly, I don't think they should unless they get a really good return because he's one of our few tradeable assets and we should only be cashing in for greater or equal value, not just dealing him because Cowart is a third baseman and exists. Cowart can adjust to MLB pitching at second, where whatever he contributes offensively is just contrasting against guys like Gia, Petit, and Pennington. He's looked pretty good defensively there so far, so he's already providing an advantage there over what we've had. Also, since so many of us have dismissed next season, again, who cares if we have shitty defense at third? Better draft pick.

April through July of '17 follow the same template we've seen this week; start Cowart at 2nd, slide him over to 3rd or elsewhere in the 6th or 7th for defense after Escobar's last at-bat or as the situation dictates. He will get time at first, left, and probably shortstop as we'll. It's not like playing at second or other positions here and there is going to harm his defense, and he's young enough to maintain there.

Once July hits, since Escobar is an impending free agent, move him for whatever at that point - if you haven't gotten a good offer for him going back to this year's deadline, you never were - and then you can drop Cowart over at third.

Here's where it all comes together. By that time, you've given him a good, long look against major league pitching - you know he's capable defensively. The question now is, going into the 2017 offseason, does he provide enough bat to be the 3B of the future? If he has shown that, problem solved. If he hasn't shown enough with the bat, you have now seen him long enough defensively around the diamond that you can expect him to have immediate value as a UT IF.

@eaterfan because this.

 

[eaterfan]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

@eaterfan because this.

 

Well I think about 5 of your opinions there are wrong.

Some I disagree with:

1. We should probably move Escobar, especially if next season is lost. 

If he shows he can be a little better at 2B than he was at 3B that helps his trade value.

2. Moving Cowart all around for a month could certainly effect his game. Even more so if it's all of next season. Not only could it hurt his defense it could effect his offense. Should it? Probably not. But these guys aren't robots.

By that same stretch moving Escobar to second could effect his offense. But I think the chances of that are smaller because he had already established his confidence at the plate. But even if it does mess with his game, I'd rather ruin Escobar who we have for one more season than Cowart who we have for 5 more.

3. I don't think Cowart had been better than Gia or Petit at 2B. But it's been a really small sample and Cowart is new and learning the position. I still don't see him every being a well above average 2B. I think Cowart can win games with his glove at 3rd. Let's find out what Cowart is by giving him his best chance to succeed. 

4. You haven't made an argument why Escobar isn't a better choice to be moved to 2B than Cowart long term (next season). I get that it could be argued that moving a guy mid season wouldn't give him time to prepare, but this season is over anyway. Give him a month now and then he'll have a jump heading into next off-season. 

[totdprods]

44 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Well I think about 5 of your opinions there are wrong.

Some I disagree with:

1. We should probably move Escobar, especially if next season is lost. 

I don't disagree with you there, but two things: 1) I think if there had been a reasonable offer for him, we would have already dealt him. There simply wasn't enough of a market on him at the deadline - few teams had a direct need for a 3B, and this offseason looks like it will be similar, as there's a handful of decent 3B options on the market in Valbuena, Turner, Walker, Prado. What Escobar has working for him is he will be cheaper and less commitment than any of those at roughly 1yr/$7m, so a team may just want to grab him quickly in the offseason and not even mess with free agency.  2) As the roster stands now, there is a replacement for him on the field in Cowart, but there isn't anyone really ready to replace where he fits in the lineup. I don't expect the front office to make a push for contention this offseason, but I don't think they want to obliterate their chances of fluking into contention. With our pitching looking sketchy for '17, I don't think they'll want to cannibalize the offense much, and I don't want to see them shuffling too many people (Calhoun, Simmons, Cron) out of the roles where they've succeeded this year.

Neither of these are reasons not to move Escobar. I'm positive that Escobar is readily available right now even, and will be all winter, and will be all next season, eventually dealt at the deadline for whatever return. But until then, considering the state of our farm and that there is no rush to move Escobar, and that he is one of our few expendable, tradeable assets, I am fine with them putting a high price on him in case someone bites - we're in a position where we really need some impact minor league return, not just 'what we can get' - we can fetch that return at the deadline. Basically, Kaleb Cowart isn't enough to make me just settle on a return for Escobar - yet. Once the offseason gets in motion I'd be more apt to change my mind.

If he shows he can be a little better at 2B than he was at 3B that helps his trade value.
Agreed, but I don't think the org has any plans to move Escobar. They've basically stated otherwise repeatedly. Knowing that the org has no plans to do that, why would I factor that into my thoughts?

2. Moving Cowart all around for a month could certainly effect his game. Even more so if it's all of next season. Not only could it hurt his defense it could effect his offense. Should it? Probably not. But these guys aren't robots.
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. If Cowart is able to show he can play around the field while Escobar is at third, than Cowart will have established himself as an versatile, glove first utility player - basically our own Pennington/Petit, but younger with a lot more upside.If Cowart hits well at second - mind you for at most, only about five months - then you can safely assume he will hit just as good when he moves back to his natural third in August '17 and the future, once Escobar is dealt.

By that same stretch moving Escobar to second could effect his offense. But I think the chances of that are smaller because he had already established his confidence at the plate. But even if it does mess with his game, I'd rather ruin Escobar who we have for one more season than Cowart who we have for 5 more.

3. I don't think Cowart had been better than Gia or Petit at 2B. But it's been a really small sample and Cowart is new and learning the position. I still don't see him every being a well above average 2B. I think Cowart can win games with his glove at 3rd. Let's find out what Cowart is by giving him his best chance to succeed. 
I was mostly referring to Cowart offensively. He should be able to put up comparable or better offensive numbers than Petit, Gia, and Pennington - and his floor is probably what they were doing already. 

4. You haven't made an argument why Escobar isn't a better choice to be moved to 2B than Cowart long term (next season). I get that it could be argued that moving a guy mid season wouldn't give him time to prepare, but this season is over anyway. Give him a month now and then he'll have a jump heading into next off-season. 
As I mentioned earlier, the org has repeatedly made it clear they have no plans to move Escobar from 3rd. They said so when they acquired him, they said so when Simmons was injured, they said so when Cowart came up, mentioning that he'd see time mostly at 2B. So, knowing this, I'm just trying to read into what their plan is, and what they may be doing, and this is all what I've put together. 

Basically, there is nothing to lose (except games, which, hey, better draft slot) playing Cowart at 2B/UT for 5 months. Whatever offensive struggles he faces, they'll be much easier to swallow if he's at second rather than supplanting Escobar's OBP or even Marte's SLG. Given that the org doesn't seem all too high on him to begin with, if that results in him being no more than a UT IF after 5 months of big-league time hopping around, then he's probably already exceeded what the org views him as. If he clubs the hell out of the ball and turns into an everyday player at second, well, then good, he's gotten opportunity and made the most of it, and now has played his way into being the heir apparent at third - or even at second if the org feels he's best there sometime in 2017. Could be a poor-man's Zobrist.