The Angels can make history!

[Oz27]

9 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I would agree that with Reagins Scioscia had a lot of power.  With Dipoto he had Arte's ear, but not as much power.  With Eppler I'm guessing it's Eppler's team but he was brought in because he values Scioscia and they all felt they could work well together. 

Well that's all a f**king big problem. He should never have had the power he had under Regains, he should never have won a power struggle against the GM and we should never pick a GM based on his ability to work with a particular manager. Outside of maybe the owner, the GM is the most important person and it's not close. The GM should call the shots, no questions asked. Our power structure is completely warped if that isn't the case and clearly for us it hasn't been.

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I guess I always find it strange when a GM is brought in and doesn't really hire his own guys he just works with what he is given. I don't remember when he was  hired much but I don't recall you hearing a bunch of names being brought in to film roles in the front office other than the token guy here and there. Like Bud Black and Ron etc which seems like it was to appease Mike. Did Eppler hire his own scouting people or personnel guys? It took until after the draft or was it right before the draft that the player personal draft guy was "fired" right? Just from my perspective it seemed just like Eppler wasn't given much say or he was nervous to rock the boat much 

Yes he brought in Eric Chavez before the year started.  He also brought in multiple advanced stat guys.  In your perception it was to appease Mike, but in reality its former managers that are very good baseball guys being brought in to help.  

[kevinb]

I can't remember who said it but they talked about how Mike has a problem with the young kids and shows his power by not starting them when they are brought up to exert his power in that way. Also with how our development of young kids he has the power I guess in that as well. Where he makes sure the kids are in each development league a year even if they have out grown that league. Again can't remember who said it but I thought it was @ScottyA_MWAH but could be totally wrong. And if that's the case tho with how he exerts power than he definitely shouldn't have a say in that stuff or at the very least very little say. I agree w @Oz27 the GM should have the most power a manager is there to strictly play out what the GM wants and how he has built the roster. 

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Well that's all a f**king big problem. He should never have had the power he had under Regains, he should never have won a power struggle against the GM and we should never pick a GM based on his ability to work with a particular manager. Outside of maybe the owner, the GM is the most important person and it's not close. The GM should call the shots, no questions asked. Our power structure is completely warped if that isn't the case and clearly for us it hasn't been.

Jerry quit.  You can call it a power struggle but when Jerry lost the clubhouse that's on him.  Ask the guys who know, he was not very well liked by the players at all.  

Let me know when we lose a GM that's better at his job than Mike is at his.  Stoneman doesn't count, he retired.  

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Well that's all a f**king big problem. He should never have had the power he had under Regains, he should never have won a power struggle against the GM and we should never pick a GM based on his ability to work with a particular manager. Outside of maybe the owner, the GM is the most important person and it's not close. The GM should call the shots, no questions asked. Our power structure is completely warped if that isn't the case and clearly for us it hasn't been.

Who says Eppler isn't calling the shots?  What if Eppler not only calls the shots but values Scioscia?  

Yes the GM should call the shots but if you read between the lines Dipoto was keeping Scioscia in the dark about the minor leagues and that is absolutely wrong.  It's late so I'm not going to go back and find the articles.  

[kevinb]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yes he brought in Eric Chavez before the year started.  He also brought in multiple advanced stat guys.  In your perception it was to appease Mike, but in reality its former managers that are very good baseball guys being brought in to help.  

Brought in to help the team on the field not in the front office. Also Chavez outlined job is of special assistant which is on field instruction. Which I'm not sure what that means when you have manager and all these ex managers on the team supposedly who know what they are doing and some scouting from what fox sports reported his job was. So he wasn't this big hire it was a name I'm guessing more than anything. A token gesture to get an ex player into front office to help get his foot in the door for better things later on. 

[kevinb]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Jerry quit.  You can call it a power struggle but when Jerry lost the clubhouse that's on him.  Ask the guys who know, he was not very well liked by the players at all.  

Let me know when we lose a GM that's better at his job than Mike is at his.  Stoneman doesn't count, he retired.  

As a GM you don't really have to be liked by the players tho. He's the one dealing with negotiations trades and building the roster the manager will I'm guessing always be more liked than a GM. As a manager you're dealing with the players on a day to day basis as a GM your looking at the big picture and don't have time to deal with individual players daily. 

[Stradling]

I think Chavez had a scouting type of position with the Yankees before coming here.  I'm guessing that's what he will be doing here.  

[Oz27]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Who says Eppler isn't calling the shots?  What if Eppler not only calls the shots but values Scioscia?  

Yes the GM should call the shots but if you read between the lines Dipoto was keeping Scioscia in the dark about the minor leagues and that is absolutely wrong.  It's late so I'm not going to go back and find the articles.  

You just said "he was brought in because he values Scioscia and they all felt they could work well together." That is the most ridiculous GM hiring policy in baseball if your theory is true. You hire a GM based on their ability to be a GM and only that. If the best GM available didn't like Scioscia, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have been hired.

Also, if we're going to "reading between the liens" you could just as easily argue Scioscia was participating in undermining the GM in the clubhouse. Pretty sure that's absolutely wrong. As for GMs better at their job who have left, yes, there is one.

[Stradling]

Like you Oz I'm speculating. 

[kevinb]

His duties with the Angels will include on-field instruction during spring training and with the minor league affiliates; major league, minor league and some international scouting; and some special-assignment scouting.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Oz27 said:

You just said "he was brought in because he values Scioscia and they all felt they could work well together." That is the most ridiculous GM hiring policy in baseball if your theory is true. You hire a GM based on their ability to be a GM and only that. If the best GM available didn't like Scioscia, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have been hired.

Also, if we're going to "reading between the liens" you could just as easily argue Scioscia was participating in undermining the GM in the clubhouse. Pretty sure that's absolutely wrong. As for GMs better at their job who have left, yes, there is one.

Who is better at their job?  Jerry?  Do we really need to go down that road again?  The guy was not good.  His best quality was he wasn't like Scioscia.  

[kevinb]

I don't know how scouting works in baseball but I'm guessing or at least hoping that major league baseball teams have a large number of scouts. Eric Chavez played baseball but being a special assistant which I'm not sure what that means. I'm guessing it's similar to an internship ish, than im hoping he doesn't have a bigger role in scouting than someone who has way more experience than one year. 

[Stradling]

Couldn't draft, horrible draft strategy, gave us a horrible bullpen two of the three years he was here.  Couldn't build a bench that made sense. Couldn't convince the owner to do what's right.  Couldn't convince him to let him hire his own manager.  Made two great trades.  Made two bad trades.  Signed Blanton.  Traded for Joyce.  

[Stradling]

Just now, Kevinb said:

I don't know how scouting works in baseball but I'm guessing or at least hoping that major league baseball teams have a large number of scouts. Eric Chavez played baseball but being a special assistant which I'm not sure what that means. I'm guessing it's similar to an internship ish, than im hoping he doesn't have a bigger role in scouting than someone who has way more experience than one year. 

They all start somewhere Kevin.  You can't have ten years experience before you have one year.  

[kevinb]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Who is better at their job?  Jerry?  Do we really need to go down that road again?  The guy was not good.  His best quality was he wasn't like Scioscia.  

Time will tell how he does with Seattle. I blame a lot of Jerrys faults in Anaheim on the Arte Mike dynamic than on Jerry himself. He's not blameless in it and the jury is still out on him as a GM but after 3 years in Seattle after being given the reigns I wonder if they will be better or worse than they are when he took over at the beginning of this season. 

[Oz27]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Who is better at their job?  Jerry?  Do we really need to go down that road again?  The guy was not good.  His best quality was he wasn't like Scioscia.  

An average to above average GM is better at their job than Scioscia is and it's not close. Scioscia is so damn overvalued on this board (and by me in a former, unenlightened life) because the best GM in Angels history gave him gold to work with for a few years. Managers who aren't that good win the world series all the time. Ned Yost is a world series winning manager, for example.

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

They all start somewhere Kevin.  You can't have ten years experience before you have one year.  

I agree that's why I said it's a token hire for an ex player to get his foot in the door in the front office. 

[kevinb]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Couldn't draft, horrible draft strategy, gave us a horrible bullpen two of the three years he was here.  Couldn't build a bench that made sense. Couldn't convince the owner to do what's right.  Couldn't convince him to let him hire his own manager.  Made two great trades.  Made two bad trades.  Signed Blanton.  Traded for Joyce.  

So I guess we can check off a couple of things on Eppler as well. Could convince Arte to allow him to hire his own scouting director. Could convince Arte to allow him to hire his own manager. Couldn't convince Arte to get him to sign a left fielder or bullpen help or spend any money. 

[Stradling]

Token hire makes it sound like they just gave him the job instead of he impressed them at the end of his career with his insight.  

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

An average to above average GM is better at their job than Scioscia is and it's not close. Scioscia is so damn overvalued on this board (and by me in a former, unenlightened life) because the best GM in Angels history gave him gold to work with for a few years. Managers who aren't that good win the world series all the time. Ned Yost is a world series winning manager, for example.

Ok but Jerry showed much more weaknesses as a GM than Scioscia has as a manager.  We can say Mike is hungry for power but Jerry is exactly the same. 

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

Token hire makes it sound like they just gave him the job instead of he impressed them at the end of his career with his insight.  

It happens all the time in sports. Isn't A Rod getting the same treatment special assistant something something title. I'm guess there's a lot of ex players who get this kind of stuff. They don't want to leave the baseball brotherhood. Why would they. It's what they grew up playing and they have I'm guessing life long relationships with ownerships front offices players and managers 

[Oz27]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Ok but Jerry showed much more weaknesses as a GM than Scioscia has as a manager.  We can say Mike is hungry for power but Jerry is exactly the same. 

I don't agree with that first bit at all and again I don't think it's that close. Also, a GM should be hungry for power. It's supposed to be the most powerful positions (except for teams which have a President of Baseball Ops as the Dodgers and others do). The manager is supposed to answer to the GM and any other set up is a sure fire recipe for failure.

[kevinb]

5 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

An average to above average GM is better at their job than Scioscia is and it's not close. Scioscia is so damn overvalued on this board (and by me in a former, unenlightened life) because the best GM in Angels history gave him gold to work with for a few years. Managers who aren't that good win the world series all the time. Ned Yost is a world series winning manager, for example.

Mike isn't bad he just has issues. On a yearly basis how many wins does a manager get you a year? Does a bad manager make or miss the playoffs with the same team?

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Time will tell how he does with Seattle. I blame a lot of Jerrys faults in Anaheim on the Arte Mike dynamic than on Jerry himself. He's not blameless in it and the jury is still out on him as a GM but after 3 years in Seattle after being given the reigns I wonder if they will be better or worse than they are when he took over at the beginning of this season. 

Arte and Mike had nothing to do with his draft strategy, had nothing to do with trading Grichuk and Bourjos for Freese and Salas, had nothing to do with signing Blanton. 

As far as how he will do over there, I guess we will see.  I can tell you some of their fans already don't like what he's done with the minor leagues, but I don't follow closely so I don't know what those things are.