The 2013 Angels: A New Dark Age or Time of Transition?

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Wouldn't it be cost effective for Artie or Dipoto to look into why former Angels are having good seasons across the league?

 

I don't know how you would determine an exact reason. That said, there is definitely something going on here. I don't know if it's motivation, instruction, clubhouse atmosphere, other factors or some combination thereof. Too many guys have seemingly forgotten how to hit or pitch as soon as they put on an Angels jersey, and I can't believe that it is simply bad luck given the number of players this has happened to.

[stormngt]

Great summation of the current club and what could lie ahead Jonathan.

I don't agree with the comment that Kennedy and Epstein were imports.  Yes we traded for them, but they were minor leaguers, not established veterans.  Therefore their costs were low.  Kennedy was a throw in on the Edmonds trade and Epstein was a minor league free agent if I am not mistaken.

I agree we shouldn't look for a high priced free agent to solve our problems.  We should give up on this season, look to trade Vargas, Hanson, and n anyone else who is performing well enough to land us multiple high end prospects.  Maybe Downs will have some interest for a playoff contending team.  

 

I do not agree with trading Bourjos or Trumbo as they are cost efficient.  I would look to trade Kendrick if Lindsey was ready, but that doesn't look like it is possible.  Pujols and Hamilton aren't going anywhere so we just have to hope they have better years.

[stormngt]

There is no way to quickly turn this ship around. It is going to take some quality arms from the minors. However, none of those arms exist above A ball. That is at least 21/2 to 3 years away.. In two years it will be necessary to replace Kendrick and Aybar. There are no replacements in the system now. The catching position needs to be addressed. There are no viable prospects above A ball.

All this adds up to several down years save fir Dipoto pulling off a miracle or two. I don't think Chris Nelson is an answer.

then maybe we should trade Aybar and Kendrick and stock pile the prospects.  If we are not going to be competitive for  several years, than we need to rebuild.  AND we need to have that rebuilding project done prior to Trout turning into a free agent.

[dimitrig]

I don't know how you would determine an exact reason. That said, there is definitely something going on here. I don't know if it's motivation, instruction, clubhouse atmosphere, other factors or some combination thereof. Too many guys have seemingly forgotten how to hit or pitch as soon as they put on an Angels jersey, and I can't believe that it is simply bad luck given the number of players this has happened to.

 

Party atmosphere? (Just speculating, no facts)

[Angelsjunky]

One thing I might not have made clear in the article, or didn't even discuss really, is that I think this team as it stands, with perhaps another starter brought in, could be competitive for the next few years. The talent is there - there's just something not clicking. But if Pujols and Hamilton start producing, this team improves vastly.

 

So while it seems rather unlikely that the Angels make the playoffs this year (although, to be honest, I haven't completely given up hope - as naive as I sound), I'm not quite ready to throw the towel in on 2014-16 and trade Kendrick, Aybar, Vargas, etc. I'd rather see the Angels address the main weak spots from this year.

 

To put that another way, the gamble Arte & Jerry made is that they invested in the team that's on the field for the next few years. They've got to stick with it, for the most part, unless they don't want to contend for the next five years if they want to completely rebuild the system from the ground up. And then, if they do that, they'll have a similar situation as Miami is facing with Giancarlo Stanton. They've pretty much have to stay the course and hope that this team can start performing, and at least make things interesting until the farm system is revamped and the next "great" homegrown Angels team takes the field in 2017 or 2018.

[Chuck]

One thing I might not have made clear in the article, or didn't even discuss really, is that I think this team as it stands, with perhaps another starter brought in, could be competitive for the next few years. The talent is there - there's just something not clicking. But if Pujols and Hamilton start producing, this team improves vastly.

 

So while it seems rather unlikely that the Angels make the playoffs this year (although, to be honest, I haven't completely given up hope - as naive as I sound), I'm not quite ready to throw the towel in on 2014-16 and trade Kendrick, Aybar, Vargas, etc. I'd rather see the Angels address the main weak spots from this year.

 

To put that another way, the gamble Arte & Jerry made is that they invested in the team that's on the field for the next few years. They've got to stick with it, for the most part, unless they don't want to contend for the next five years if they want to completely rebuild the system from the ground up. And then, if they do that, they'll have a similar situation as Miami is facing with Giancarlo Stanton. They've pretty much have to stay the course and hope that this team can start performing, and at least make things interesting until the farm system is revamped and the next "great" homegrown Angels team takes the field in 2017 or 2018.

 

Feel free to send me a paragraph to add to the article and where. I think that's the missing piece in this one, because it very well could happen. Weaver, Vargas and Wilson are more than good enough. If the Angels add another quality starter, with Hanson as our #5, I don't think we're in that bad of shape at all. 

[stormngt]

One thing I might not have made clear in the article, or didn't even discuss really, is that I think this team as it stands, with perhaps another starter brought in, could be competitive for the next few years. The talent is there - there's just something not clicking. But if Pujols and Hamilton start producing, this team improves vastly.

 

So while it seems rather unlikely that the Angels make the playoffs this year (although, to be honest, I haven't completely given up hope - as naive as I sound), I'm not quite ready to throw the towel in on 2014-16 and trade Kendrick, Aybar, Vargas, etc. I'd rather see the Angels address the main weak spots from this year.

 

To put that another way, the gamble Arte & Jerry made is that they invested in the team that's on the field for the next few years. They've got to stick with it, for the most part, unless they don't want to contend for the next five years if they want to completely rebuild the system from the ground up. And then, if they do that, they'll have a similar situation as Miami is facing with Giancarlo Stanton. They've pretty much have to stay the course and hope that this team can start performing, and at least make things interesting until the farm system is revamped and the next "great" homegrown Angels team takes the field in 2017 or 2018.

This is where you and I differ.  Yes, like you, I am holding out for hope.  However, I don't see Pujols and Hamilton's improvement helping us much when our #4 and #5 starters are almost guaranteed to lose a game.  Yesterday was the first game we won where Blanton pitched, and we had to score 12 runs to do that.  It is just as bad on whoever we are throwing out at the #5 spot (Enright was the last starter there).  Now if Weaver comes back and dominates, Williams continues to pitch well, and somehow Richards or someone else steps up and becomes a league average starter than we have a shot, especially when Pujols and Hamilton play better.  

 

But I don't see that happening with our pitching the way it is.

[stormngt]

Feel free to send me a paragraph to add to the article and where. I think that's the missing piece in this one, because it very well could happen. Weaver, Vargas and Wilson are more than good enough. If the Angels add another quality starter, with Hanson as our #5, I don't think we're in that bad of shape at all. 

Hell I forgot about Hanson, is he still on the team?  How long will he be in bereavement leave?  He is an average pitcher, and now Williams maybe good enough.  So there is a chance.  

[Chuck]

Hell I forgot about Hanson, is he still on the team?  How long will he be in bereavement leave?  He is an average pitcher, and now Williams maybe good enough.  So there is a chance.  

 

Weird. I know his stepbrother passed away a few weeks back, but that's a pretty long bereavement Hanson is taking. I wonder if something else we don't know about is going on. 

 

Either way, I wish him and his family condolences and strength in this terrible time. 

[AZMike]

Weird. I know his stepbrother passed away a few weeks back, but that's a pretty long bereavement Hanson is taking. I wonder if something else we don't know about is going on. 

 

Either way, I wish him and his family condolences and strength in this terrible time. 

 

My speculation on this is that the second bereavement leave is not related to grieving period (the orignal leave) but probably some sort of family emergency that resulted for the death. For example it may have been that Hanson's brother was say taking care of a sick relative or something and how Tommy is the only person with legal power of attorney to make important decisions at this time. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

I don't agree with the comment that Kennedy and Epstein were imports.  Yes we traded for them, but they were minor leaguers, not established veterans.  Therefore their costs were low.  Kennedy was a throw in on the Edmonds trade and Epstein was a minor league free agent if I am not mistaken.

I agree we shouldn't look for a high priced free agent to solve our problems.  We should give up on this season, look to trade Vargas, Hanson, and n anyone else who is performing well enough to land us multiple high end prospects.  Maybe Downs will have some interest for a playoff contending team.  

 

I do not agree with trading Bourjos or Trumbo as they are cost efficient.  I would look to trade Kendrick if Lindsey was ready, but that doesn't look like it is possible.  Pujols and Hamilton aren't going anywhere so we just have to hope they have better years.

 

I believe Eckstein was a waiver wire pick up. Boston tried to sneak him off their roster and gambled that no one was as high on him as they were (according to Boston's front office later).

Kennedy was the centerpiece of the Edmonds deal. We literally didn't have a second basemen and he was highly regarded.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

Feel free to send me a paragraph to add to the article and where. I think that's the missing piece in this one, because it very well could happen. Weaver, Vargas and Wilson are more than good enough. If the Angels add another quality starter, with Hanson as our #5, I don't think we're in that bad of shape at all. 

 

 

One thing I might not have made clear in the article, or didn't even discuss really, is that I think this team as it stands, with perhaps another starter brought in, could be competitive for the next few years. The talent is there - there's just something not clicking. But if Pujols and Hamilton start producing, this team improves vastly.

 

So while it seems rather unlikely that the Angels make the playoffs this year (although, to be honest, I haven't completely given up hope - as naive as I sound), I'm not quite ready to throw the towel in on 2014-16 and trade Kendrick, Aybar, Vargas, etc. I'd rather see the Angels address the main weak spots from this year.

 

To put that another way, the gamble Arte & Jerry made is that they invested in the team that's on the field for the next few years. They've got to stick with it, for the most part, unless they don't want to contend for the next five years if they want to completely rebuild the system from the ground up. And then, if they do that, they'll have a similar situation as Miami is facing with Giancarlo Stanton. They've pretty much have to stay the course and hope that this team can start performing, and at least make things interesting until the farm system is revamped and the next "great" homegrown Angels team takes the field in 2017 or 2018.

I agree with this for the most part. A rebuild isn't going to work because there aren't enough movable pieces to bring enough back. Trading Aybar & Kendrick brings something back but it also ensures we do not compete for years. We are stuck with paying for Pujols and Hamilton either way.

 

This team had the highest WAR in baseball from the position players last season, we could be just as good this year if Pujols and Hamilton were hitting anywhere near where they should be. The pitching is going to suck no matter what BUT Weaver, Wilson and Vargas are good enough to keep us in games, and while the pen is terribad history tells us that they usually aren't deal breakers for most team (worth maybe 3-4 wins between the best and worst teams in a season).

 

The big problem is Vargas is a FA at years end AND we need to bring in at least one more very good starting pitcher in addition to him to really start expecting this team to do well.

The issues facing this team are a lack of depth (exposed by injuries), and complete let downs by Pujols, Hamilton and Blanton. If we can get healthy, get Pujol's & Hamilton playing well, and replace the production we expected to get from Blanton this team will compete. The question is if they can do all of that. I have my doubts but it is likely a better option to go for than a weak rebuilding phase that ensures mediocre seasons for the next few years. 

[Angelsjunky]

The Hamilton and Pujols contracts and investments pretty much guarantee the Angels won't enter a full rebuilding phase. Imagine how they'd react, how Trout would feel knowing that his first half decade in the majors is just whiling away his time, racking up stats. No, I think Arte and Jerry are going to try to win. My hope, though, is that they're learning their lesson - which I outlined in my blog article.

 

Chuck, I don't think any change is necessary at this point.

[dimitrig]

The Hamilton and Pujols contracts and investments pretty much guarantee the Angels won't enter a full rebuilding phase. Imagine how they'd react, how Trout would feel knowing that his first half decade in the majors is just whiling away his time, racking up stats. No, I think Arte and Jerry are going to try to win. My hope, though, is that they're learning their lesson - which I outlined in my blog article.

 

Chuck, I don't think any change is necessary at this point.

 

What can they do, though? No one will take Pujols. Hamilton has a more friendly contract but not how he is playing. There's no way to improve the roster except to take on more salaries. Angels will have a $200M payroll and still be fighting for a wildcard.

[tj_]

and trading for problematic but talented outfielder Jose Guillen.

 

I'm pretty sure Guillen was signed as a free agent. Who would we have traded for him?

[Docwaukee]

Nice job AJ. 

 

One of the things I tend to disagree with is the notion that JD is looking at the short term and not planning for the future. 

 

I think he knows very well the importance of the farm system as the core of building a sustainable winner.  I think he also knows the current state of the farm as one of the worst in baseball and I think he underestimated how good Segura might be and that's why he felt him somewhat expendable. 

 

The pujols signing was a franchise related move.  One that had Arte's fingerprints all over it.  One that made it so they could lure a 50mil/yr TV contract.  4 of those years could be allocated to tv money.  The other six were supposed to be fairly productive.  Productive during Josh Hamilton's halo years.  Productive during Wilson's and Weavers contract.  Productive enough during the Kendrick and Aybar contracts and during the time where their young, club controlled and cheap players were producing before they got expensive. 

 

All of the recent free agent signings were a bridge.  A bridge to rebuild the minor league system.  To keep the team competitive while that happened. 

 

Look at the timing of everything but the Pujols contract.  Replacements needed at one to two positions and one or two pitching spots per year until the end of 2017.  In theory, it shouldn't have been a tough task to do so with a team that is fairly competitive - on paper.  By that time there should be a new crop of young players ready to go. 

 

It's a good plan - in theory.

 

The problem is that everything that could possibly go wrong has in the first quarter of the first year of that plan.

Last year started the ball rolling.  The pitching fell apart and left a ton of holes to fill.  Yes, there have been some missteps.

The blanton deal.  Underestimating the talent of Jean Segura (so far).  But the other moves were reasonable and have not worked because good players have not performed as expected.

 

Josh Hamilton and Albert Pujols are not Vernon Wells.  At least at the time they were signed they weren't.  Yes, they are overpaid but their basement performance should at least be solid to very good.  That is why I can't totally blame the franchise for making those moves.  They were well aware of what the last couple of years of the Hamilton contract was gonna be like, and similarly aware of what the last 3-4 years of the pujols deal would be.  But by that time they were supposed to have 3-5 playoff appearances and the farm would be rebuilt. 

 

Fast forward to reality however, and nothing has worked.  The two things that couldn't happen have.  Their high priced players haven't performed even in the early parts of their contracts, and their lack of depth has been exposed

Hamilton and Pujols are hitting like the halo version of wells.

They lost their #1 starter to injury.

Key components to the pen have been injured.

Key components to the everyday lineup have been injured

The questionable moves have been worse than anticipated

And the rest of the team has been lulled into a somewhat apathetic state that has spiraled into bad baseball that has included poor defense, bad baserunning, and being very untimely on both the pitching and hitting aspects of the game.

 

The good news?

Although the w/l record isn't pretty to look at, this is not the nuclear winter that many have assumed.  I agree with your followup post about where we can go from here

 

Everyone needs to ask themselves what they want as a fan of this team.

 

There is no doubt that we can agree on the fact that Hamilton and Pujols are here for the duration and that we also need a better farm system.  So what happens for the next 5 years while that occurs. 

 

Do they sell off all the spare parts in hopes that they can hasten the revamp of farm system by a year or two? Best case scenario is that we start seeing some of those young players 3 years from now and the major league club is brutal until then.  Worst case scenario?  You sustain a high payroll club losing major league club that loses 100 games yet the farm system takes much longer to develop than expected and you sustain those losing seasons for quite some time.

 

Or

 

Keep what you have and add to it in the offseason.  Sign a Garza type.  Re-sign Vargas.  Ditch Blanton.  Bring back Madsen and Downs and pray that Pujols and Hamilton get their act together to actually complement the rest of the club as they were supposed to.  Worst case scenario is you still field a losing team and you are a couple year behind the above in rebuilding the farm system, but at least in that time you have some chance of winning. 

 

The hope of the current club having a much better season next year with some decent additions is a much more palatable scenario than knowing this team is going to lose for the next five years while Mike Trout, Jered Weaver, Albert Pujols, and Josh Hamilton are still on the club.

 

Here is a what if.

 

What if we sell off all the parts and all four of those guys have great seasons next year yet we miss the playoffs because the remainder of the scrubs perform as expected?  Then what?

 

For that very reason, this club will not enter rebuild mode while Hamilton, Weaver and Wilson are still under contract. 

[Brent Maguire]

Doc just summed it up perfectly.

 

A fire sale isn't the answer to our problems. Let this team try to gel and keep the roster together for next year. Get rid of Blanton and find a nice #3 option if you can and hope that Pujols gets his plantar fixed and Josh finds a better approach. 

[stormngt]

I believe Eckstein was a waiver wire pick up. Boston tried to sneak him off their roster and gambled that no one was as high on him as they were (according to Boston's front office later).

Kennedy was the centerpiece of the Edmonds deal. We literally didn't have a second basemen and he was highly regarded.

 

I thought the pitcher, Bottleman or something like that, was the centerpiece of the trade  and Kennedy was a throw in.

[stormngt]

What is Hanson's contract status for next year?

[ettin]

One thing I might not have made clear in the article, or didn't even discuss really, is that I think this team as it stands, with perhaps another starter brought in, could be competitive for the next few years. The talent is there - there's just something not clicking. But if Pujols and Hamilton start producing, this team improves vastly.

 

So while it seems rather unlikely that the Angels make the playoffs this year (although, to be honest, I haven't completely given up hope - as naive as I sound), I'm not quite ready to throw the towel in on 2014-16 and trade Kendrick, Aybar, Vargas, etc. I'd rather see the Angels address the main weak spots from this year.

 

To put that another way, the gamble Arte & Jerry made is that they invested in the team that's on the field for the next few years. They've got to stick with it, for the most part, unless they don't want to contend for the next five years if they want to completely rebuild the system from the ground up. And then, if they do that, they'll have a similar situation as Miami is facing with Giancarlo Stanton. They've pretty much have to stay the course and hope that this team can start performing, and at least make things interesting until the farm system is revamped and the next "great" homegrown Angels team takes the field in 2017 or 2018.

 

Well, frankly, buying these free agents was the better route to go at the time those decisions were made. Last year's First Year Player Draft and this year's draft were considered very shallow in terms of high-end talent. Was it smarter to spend the money on free agents and extensions to put in place a contending team for the next 3-5 years or was it better to keep the draft picks and take the lesser talented prospects in the players pools last year and this year?

 

I think Dipoto made the best decisions he could at the time and I don't regret that. Next year's draft is also projected to be poorer than average. We have a good nucleus but you are correct that something is not "clicking".

[Angelsjunky]

I thought the pitcher, Bottleman or something like that, was the centerpiece of the trade  and Kennedy was a throw in.

Bottenfield. And yes, you are correct. It was a bit of a dump because Edmonds was gelling with the team, was somewhat disgruntled. And then, of course, he went on to have one of the best 5-6 year stretches by a center fielder in major league history.

[405z06]

Bottleman and Epstien were 2 of my favorites of the era