People are placing too much blame on Butcher. Fernando Rodney still sucks

[sneaky_flute]

i think this is going to be his worst year yet.

[Ohtaniland]

The problem is that we have about six Fernando Rodneys on our staff and Butcher can't fix any of them.

[red321]

Yeah, damn Butcher...how dare he not turn Blanton, Vargas, Hanson, and a bunch of nobody AAA guys in to all-stars

[jshep]

Yeah, damn Butcher...how dare he not turn Blanton, Vargas, Hanson, and a bunch of nobody AAA guys in to all-stars

 

Nice strawman.

[red321]

Nice strawman.

 

Sometimes the pitching coach is the problem...but most of the time it's the material he's given to work with. Nobody is making this pitching staff above average...or hell, average. That lies solely at the feet of the GM.

[Angel Oracle]

And the owner who allowed pitching to become a mess in this org

[Taylor]

Yeah, damn Butcher...how dare he not turn Blanton, Vargas, Hanson, and a bunch of nobody AAA guys in to all-stars

 

red uses the same excuse to defend Obama.

[Stradling]

"This is the year of blaming the owner."

-AO

[Make Angels Great Again]

I'm gonna puke if I see AO mention arte one more time. He's one of the best things to ever happen to this team.

[jshep]

But no one is expecting Butcher to turn these guys into All-Stars, that's entirely the strawman you're propping up for the sake of your argument.

 

Leaving the issue of whether it's Butcher's "fault" or not out for a second(and my opinion here is that while it may not be Butcher's fault persay, it might be a good time to get a different voice in there, much like with Hatcher this time last year)...

 

I think there's a legitimate debate to be had about whether or not the pitching staff was as good as the team wanted to think it was or if the pitching staff would be good enough.

 

But at this point, the pitching staff is performing a lot worse than even the most pessimistic predictions coming into the season would have had them performing.

 

It's not like these guys are performing at their career levels and it's just not good enough, they're underperforming by quite a bit.

 

And whether you want to point to Butcher exclusively or not, when you have that sort of under performance from multiple pieces of your pitching staff, it warrants a closer look.

[red321]

red uses the same excuse to defend Obama.

 

I'd laugh...but I don't even know who the hell you are.

[red321]

But no one is expecting Butcher to turn these guys into All-Stars, that's entirely the strawman you're propping up for the sake of your argument.

 

Leaving the issue of whether it's Butcher's "fault" or not out for a second...

 

I think there's a legitimate debate to be had about whether or not the pitching staff was as good as the team wanted to think it was or if the pitching staff would be good enough.

 

But at this point, the pitching staff is performing a lot worse than even the most pessimistic predictions coming into the season would have had them performing.

 

When folks are tossing Butcher's name out to be fired, because the pitching staff is atrocious, I think it's perfectly find to toss some hyperbole out there. This staff is not performing all that much worse than one would expect.

 

Did you expect better from Blanton? From Vargas? From Hanson? None of these performance are head scratching. These are 5th starters.

 

CJ Wilson might be the one guy you could say needs someone else to try and get through to him.

 

The bullpen was the biggest issue for this team going in to 2012, and it wasn't addressed. One could say it was the reason the Angels didn't make the playoffs. So, going in to 2013, it still wasn't addressed. For a team that is spending around 150 million, to sign a closer coming off Tommy John as one of their key acquisitions...that is just dumb. Maybe if you sign him to be your setup guy like Texas did with Soria...but this bullpen rebuild was based in large part on Madson being the closer which pushed Frieri in to the 8th inning role and everyone else down a notch.

 

So, you take blowing up the rotation and signing a bunch of 5th starters, add in not addressing the bullpen - when your poor starting rotation makes it even more important to have a strong bullpen...and this is what you get. It shouldn't be a surprise and to put it on Butcher is ignoring how the Halos ended up in this spot.

[jshep]

Yes, I expected better than a 7.84 ERA and WHIP over 2 from Blanton.

 

And better than a 5.82 ERA and WHIP over 2 from Vargas.

 

Because they've both shown themselves to be better than that. Same with CJ.

 

Again, I think it's open to debate whether the rotation Dipoto built is good enough even if it's performing up to it's career averages, but the idea that those guys aren't under performing is patently false.

 

Also, while I agree that more should have done about the bullpen(without doing something stupid like caving to Rafael Soriano's contract demands), I never got the impression that they were counting on Madson to be the closer. I saw a bunch of media members ASSUMING Madson would be the closer if healthy, but nothing the team or Madson said totally jived with that.

[Angel Oracle]

AFL, while Arte Moreno has seen the franchise value grow to three times it's 2003 value, they also have a gutted farm system, a mess of a MLB pitching staff, a very small presence in foreign baseball, and a disjointed group of position players. In other words, the 2010s answer to the 1980s Skankees, and we know how long it took to fix that (12 straight seasons missing the post-season).

Ultimately, a total breakdown from top to bottom can fall on the owner. Arte was the one who hired Reagins.

[Chuck]

I'd laugh...but I don't even know who the hell you are.

 

Bumpygrimes

[Make Angels Great Again]

AFL, while Arte Moreno has seen the franchise value grow to three times it's 2003 value, they also have a gutted farm system, a mess of a MLB pitching staff, a very small presence in foreign baseball, and a disjointed group of position players. In other words, the 2010s answer to the 1980s Skankees, and we know how long it took to fix that (12 straight seasons missing the post-season).

Ultimately, a total breakdown from top to bottom can fall on the owner. Arte was the one who hired Reagins.

Arte is not to blame for this mess. Its pretty simple, he writes the checks and gives the power to make baseball decisions to the GM. Arte is the one paying the players. You think Arte is the one drafting and building the farm system? Lol, he may have hired Reagins but that is hardly reason to want the guy to sell the team after all he's done.

[Blarg]

AFL, while Arte Moreno has seen the franchise value grow to three times it's 2003 value, they also have a gutted farm system, a mess of a MLB pitching staff, a very small presence in foreign baseball, and a disjointed group of position players. In other words, the 2010s answer to the 1980s Skankees, and we know how long it took to fix that (12 straight seasons missing the post-season).

Ultimately, a total breakdown from top to bottom can fall on the owner. Arte was the one who hired Reagins.

The Autrys hired Reagins.

[Angel Oracle]

Maybe selling the team is a bit harsh, but he does need to reign in the crazy spending and start putting more into the minors and foreign scouting.

A balanced approach is normally the best.

[Angel Oracle]

Not as GM, Arte didn't have to promote him to GM.

[jshep]

Arte is not to blame for this mess. Its pretty simple, he writes the checks and gives the power to make baseball decisions to the GM. Arte is the one paying the players. You think Arte is the one drafting and building the farm system? Lol, he may have hired Reagins but that is hardly reason to want the guy to sell the team after all he's done.

 

I'm not totally on AO's side here, but...

 

If Arte is hiring and retaining people, some of whom aren't qualified or capable of doing their jobs effectively, and he's the one who's okaying 250 million dollars to Albert Pujols or 125 million dollars to Josh Hamilton, or possibly the one limiting the scouting department's spending money under the old system(obviously it's less of an issue with the current CBA), doesn't he deserve at least some portion of the heat for the current situation?

[red321]

Yes, I expected better than a 7.84 ERA and WHIP over 2 from Blanton.

 

And better than a 5.82 ERA and WHIP over 2 from Vargas.

 

Because they've both shown themselves to be better than that. Same with CJ.

 

Again, I think it's open to debate whether the rotation Dipoto built is good enough even if it's performing up to it's career averages, but the idea that those guys aren't under performing is patently false.

 

Also, while I agree that more should have done about the bullpen(without doing something stupid like caving to Rafael Soriano's contract demands), I never got the impression that they were counting on Madson to be the closer. I saw a bunch of media members ASSUMING Madson would be the closer if healthy, but nothing the team or Madson said totally jived with that.

 

I don't expect much better from them...they are 5th starters, at best. Maybe you can cover having one of them in your rotation...but when your rotation is made of 3-4 of those guys, that's called a design flaw. You are trying to draw an inside straight, hoping career #5 guys can perform at or above average.

 

"If Ryan Madson is throwing the ball like he has over the course of the last five years, he's one of the premier relievers in the game," Dipoto said. "What he's done in his career stands out in a lot of different ways. Him becoming anchorman in the bullpen allows us to move the others around and essentially troubleshoot. It makes the bullpen better."

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-30/news/sns-rt-bbo-angels-team-reportsx6d0a3a1-20121129_1_general-manager-jerry-dipoto-los-angeles-angels-bullpen

 

“If Ryan is ready on opening day, we’re ready to roll,” Dipoto said. “If it takes a little longer than that, we have the ability to cover the front counter. It just creates a nice bullpen depth. Every good bullpen needs an anchorman, and Ryan Madson has proved his ability in that regard.”...I guess he was a little off on that one

 

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/11/29/closer-ryan-madson-finalizes-3-5m-1-year-deal/

[red321]

I'm not totally on AO's side here, but...

 

If Arte is hiring and retaining people who aren't qualified or capable of doing their jobs effectively, and he's the one who's okaying 250 million dollars to Albert Pujols or 125 million dollars to Josh Hamilton, or possibly the one limiting the scouting department's spending money under the old system(obviously it's less of an issue with the current CBA), doesn't he deserve at least some portion of the heat for the current situation?

 

I agree with you on this one. Arte made it clear he wanted to win, and win now. He was the one who brought in Dipoto and gave him his marching orders. How Dipoto chose to try and push that vision, that's on Dipoto, but Arte has made it clear he was willing to roll the dice for short term gain.

[Fontana Halo]

I don't expect him to turn chicken ish into chicken salad.

 

That being said, I expect that chicken ish to have a set of stones and be able to throw strikes.

[Angel Oracle]

Throwing strikes would be a novel idea.