mulwin444

Going 2016, you had the beginning of a solid staff - Richards coming off a 200+ IP season, Santiago 105 ERA+ in 180 IP, Heaney putting up 108 ERA+ in 105 IP through 18 starts, and a back of the rotation of Shoemaker, Weaver (last season of his contract), and Tropeano with Skaggs coming back at some point. 

Then, Richards, Heaney, and Tropeano all went down to elbow injuries, Skaggs only could contribute 10 starts, Weaver fell completely off a cliff...it got desperate...so desperate in fact that we actually had Lincecum in the rotation.  The bullpen was hit as well with Street complete decline and a promising season by Bedrosian but short by a groin injury.

By the time 2017 rolled around, who were Angels tradeable assets that would bring something consequential back? Trout, Simmons (who they just traded for that winter),...maybe Calhoun and Cron.

Fact was they didn't have much to trade...either from a 30th ranked minor league system to improve the team or from the MLB team to replenish the minor leagues.

Just look at that 2017 team...how did they win 80 games? 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAA/2017.shtml

Add to that two more SP injuries in Meyer (with shoulder injury he'd retire from) and Shoemaker (with a forearm injury that knocked him out for 2 seasons), and Skaggs shoulder inflammation.  

Again, the only guy able to bring back anything was Trout.  

So, if you tank, maybe Trout doesn't re-sign with the Angels, maybe Shohei doesn't sign either, maybe the draft position change means they select someone different than Jo Adell and...what if, what if...

For what it's worth, this is a "devil we know" in terms of possible outcomes with no guarantee it could have gotten better if they gutted the roster on purpose. 

3 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

Thanks for looking it up.  For some reason I remembered it not being as big of a deal originally. 

I think we had some hope that the PRP would help, and initially there was enough healing to start a rehab, but fully tore eventually.  On the flip side, Tanaka recovered from a grade 2 sprain with injections.

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

And: don't throw curveballs until HS, don't throw over 100-110 pitches in college games, and don't pitch year round. 

Maybe?  I think it's probably a good idea to focus on throwing fastballs for strikes first and then maybe introducing a cutter for something different since it doesn't stress the arm any differently...you just change the grip.  Then, work on a change up.

After that, yes, only pitch during the baseball season and play other sports but also continue to build arm strength with long toss...also limit the pitches thrown.  

All these seem reasonable and good suggestions but I have no idea if they would actually accomplish anything.

Now, the MRI doesn't show a tear but, obviously doesn't mean a tear can't develop over time...or this year...or next month.  

38 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

I may be wrong, but I believe the first time Richards had an elbow issue, there was no tear.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2702504-garrett-richards-elbow-injury-diagnosed-as-ucl-damage-may-need-surgery

He was limited to six starts in 2016 due to a torn elbow ligament.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/angels/la-sp-angels-garrett-richards-tommy-john-surgery-20160506-story.html

MAY 6, 2016

Garrett Richards sat at the far end of the dugout Friday discussing the latest calamity of his star-crossed career, a “high-grade” ulnar collateral ligament tear that will probably require surgery and sideline the Angels ace for the rest of this season and at least half of 2017.

11 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

This has the Garrett Richards situation written all over it.  It doesn't tear, but it causes pain every time he pitches.  They try everything to fix it, nothing works and surgery eventually is needed.

That said, you don't just make him have surgery just to "get it over with".  You have to follow the steps in hope something works.

Odds aren't good though.

GRich had a partial tear of the ligament (grade 2) and tried treating it with PRP injections and rehab even though Tommy John surgery was recommended.  Different scenario here since Canning has no year (per his MRI and Fletcher).  That can change but, again, that's most pitchers throwing overhand.

11 minutes ago, Rollinghard said:

"preventative UCL reconstruction "

If I were a surgeon, I would strongly consider pioneering this. Remember Dr. Frank Jobe was considered a little crazy. 

And if we can't/won't send are draft picks straight to surgery how about mandatory preventive PRP? 

Difference was, Dr Frank Jobe operated on people who actually needed surgery.  

Also, just because you get Tommy John surgery doesn't mean you won't need ever need again...it also doesn't mean you won't need it again soon after the first one (see Jonny Venters).

The reason it hasn't been considered to this point is it is not a good idea/viable solution.

Just now, SoPas Angel said:

Will doctors even do the surgery on someone without a tear? 

Per another tweeted article: "To date, there is no data to support or even consider preventative UCL reconstruction to improve throwing velocity or prevent injuries in the future".

The best thing to do, per all credible sources, is to try and save/rehab the existing UCL and only operate if absolutely necessary. 

49 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

They are not going to perform surgery when there isn't a tear.  Usually, you will hear something about a grade 1 (stretched but no tear), 2 (stretched and partial tear), or 3 sprain of UCL (complete tear).  So, it sounds like he's grade 1.

Ohtani had a grade 2 sprain in July 2018, they tried PRP injections, let it rehab, and then it tore (grade 3) when he tried pitching before the end of 2018.

Again, Heaney had a partial tear (grade 2), attempted PRP, and, when healing "plateaued", he opted for surgery

GRich?  Yeah, partial tear...

So, unless he has a partial tear (grade 2), it's not the same as these other scenarios.

Could "chronic changes" mean "partial tear"?  Maybe...but they don't say it explicitly 

To amend what I said earlier, Jeff Fletcher just tweeted that when we signed Ohtani, he alreayd had a grade 1 sprain of the UCL and Canning doesn't even have that.

His injury appears to be "because I am a pitcher".

21 minutes ago, Stradling said:

How many of you get surgery before a doctor tells you that you need surgery?   Or get a tooth pulled and replaced with an implant because of a couple of  cavities on that tooth?  If there is no tear then he is probably not getting TJ surgery until there is a tear.  It sucks as a fan because of the timeline but it is what it is.  

Every time a pitcher gets operated on, there is chance they never return.  It's why even with a partial tear (grade 2) gets PRP and rest because the alternative is career-altering.  

They are not going to perform surgery when there isn't a tear.  Usually, you will hear something about a grade 1 (stretched but no tear), 2 (stretched and partial tear), or 3 sprain of UCL (complete tear).  So, it sounds like he's grade 1.

Ohtani had a grade 2 sprain in July 2018, they tried PRP injections, let it rehab, and then it tore (grade 3) when he tried pitching before the end of 2018.

Again, Heaney had a partial tear (grade 2), attempted PRP, and, when healing "plateaued", he opted for surgery

GRich?  Yeah, partial tear...

So, unless he has a partial tear (grade 2), it's not the same as these other scenarios.

Could "chronic changes" mean "partial tear"?  Maybe...but they don't say it explicitly 

17 minutes ago, RBM said:

Your Dad was drafted ahead of Bobby Grich. That's awesome.

He pitched to Bob Boone in the minors coming up.  Years later, when Boone was on the Angels, I got to meet Grich, DeCinces, Downing, Witt, etc.  The only one that was not interested at all was Reggie...he was a grumpy bitch.  

16 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Does this count as an "in the biz" post?

Maybe?  I don't claim to be "in the biz" myself...but I did get the peripheral benefit of hearing the same minor league stories for the past 40+ years.

Edit: this is he:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=meyer-001phi

Also, my Mom's cousin pitched for the Twins for a bit:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hugheji03.shtml

Oh, and my Uncle "pitched" (Haha) in the Angels org for a bit:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=hughes003mic

10 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Real Sports had a really good segment on this. Didnt feature baseball (from what I remember), but a ton of college and younger level athletes who have had TJ level injuries, specifically from only playing one sport.

My dad was drafted by the Phillies as a pitcher out of high school in 1967 and he played baseball, basketball and football.  He was the top starter on his team so there was an expectation he'd go deep into games and even then he was being pressured by the high school coach to make baseball a year round commitment.  I think a lot of these kids have a ton of innings on their arms before they ever make it out of high school.

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Too many pitchers throw too hard too soon in their development?      Are Little Leagues, Pony Leagues, etc. going to eventually understand that? 

Canning didn't pitch that many innings at UCLA, and has been treated with kid gloves here.   And still, two shutdowns and now this 

I don't think pitching year round helps...it's likely beneficial to play a lot different sports instead of specializing so maybe you are a more complete athlete...but, still, who knows?

24 minutes ago, Rollinghard said:

When will teams/ pitching coaches start evaluating pitching mechanics (slow mo video) and training to try to avoid injuries before they happen. There are guys out there that predict which pitchers are going to get injured based off their mechanics.  Chris O'Leary  is one but there are others too. He has a position he calls the JT twist and other tell tale signs to predict the the probability for a pitcher's arm and shoulder health. I know its almost like shooting fish in a barrel but his record is pretty amazing. Angels need  to do something.      

All 30 MLB teams have millions of dollars in guaranteed contracts to these pitchers...do you think they just shrug and say to themselves "Whelp"?  If they knew how to prevent arm injuries, they'd do it.  The Yankees have more money invested in their franchise than anyone other than maybe the Dodgers and just lost their most promising starter for the next 1 1/2 seasons and their only solution to their lack of pitching was offering 9 years guaranteed to another starting pitcher.  I know it feels like it just happens to us but every team loses pitchers to arm injuries because throwing a ball overhand at a 95+ MPH is an unnatural thing for the body to do to begin with, everyone's body is different so coming to a consensus solution may be difficult, and even the most durable starters go down to injury eventually.  

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So if Stripling gets hurt will all these Arte should have let the trade (that was never agreed upon) go through stop?

Hahaha...no

Fffffuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccc-----

Seriously, though, given his history, a potential elbow injury was always a possibility.  

Severino has already gone down for the Yankees after missing almost all of last season, Chris Sale is opening the season on the injury, Emmamuel Clase could be out next to 3 months with an injury...and that's just the last couple of days.

Depth is always a good thing...injuries don't descriminate.  

6 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

It's funny to me that the same people who want to hold Eppler's feet to the fire for not winning in his three years with the team  (without any consideration of where the team was when he started)....will give Arte (who's owned the team since 2003) a complete pass for 10 years of futility and a decimated farm system.

I don't give him "complete pass" but I am going to place the majority of the blame on Tony Reagins and Jerry Dipoto for fucking up draft after draft and trading away what little talent we had for a handful of magic beans leaving Eppler with a bloated payroll and a 30th ranked farm system by 2016.  Moreno is "responsible" by default since he signs the checks and makes hires likely based on advise from people close to him but sometimes people just have to do their jobs well. 

I still find it amusing that people here still think that the only reason the Pederson/Stripling trade didn't happen was because Arte got "impatient"...like he was sitting in his office, twirling around in his chair, drumming his fingers on his desk, checking his watch repeatedly and calling Eppler every five minutes; "Well?...Well?!!"

Eppler: "Like I told you the 30 other times not yet?"

Arte: "No, fuck that, I want it now! Now! NNNOOOOWWWWWW!!!!"

Hilarious...it just sucks this stupid narrative is going to be rehashed until something equally inane replaces it.

On 2/13/2020 at 10:48 AM, Lou said:

Is it still the Hot Stove season?  Hamels out. 

 https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/braves-cole-hamels-wont-be-ready-for-opening-day-after-suffering-shoulder-injury/

Something something "Hamels' Woes"

Looks like they'll be leaning on their minor leagues a bit more than anticipated:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/02/brad-peacock-setback-astros-neck.html

They'll do worse this season because:

 - Angels and Rangers are likely better than last season.  A's won 97 games in 2018 and 2019 and has a solid squad coming back.

 - Astros lost one of their aces  in Cole and replaced him a with a guy coming back from TMJ surgery and lost Miley, who put up 116 ERA+ over 167 IP last season who will be replaced with a talented, but unproven Urquidy.  

 - The Astros will have a huge target on their back wherever they travel and fans will not let them forget what they did.  Time will tell if there is a psychological toll in that regard...

23 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

Go ahead outside this bubble and tell someone that Mike Trout has had as good a career as Michael Jordan.

Half the people will ask, "Who?"

The other half will laugh at you.

"Sir, this is an Arby's? Do you want something or...?"

It sucks but, honestly, I wasn't expecting much from him.  He was wildly erratic in 2018 and regressed even further in 2019 so I would be fine with him taking as much time to rehab as needed.