Wisconsin27

I respect your contributions, totprods, but just can't agree with this.  No organization came overcome those obstacles long-term regardless of a short-term plan (of which, I agree with you on).  Winning organizations don't have meddling owners reluctant to spend on the farm or analytics, and fire people who don't perform under their "keep the revenue streams going" approach.  None, in any sport.
The idea we can properly evaluate any GM knowing the parameters our owner puts in front of them is almost comical.  As fans, we just clamor so much for the next season that I sometimes think we lose perspective of the big picture (forrest from the trees, so to speak).
 

I don’t disagree with this, generally. I might have benefitted from wording my original reply better…I don’t disagree that Arte isn’t an obstacle to their success, and that as head honcho he does take blame regardless of any GM, or that the aspects in which he does ‘meddle’ or skimp affect the team’s outlook or the GM’s ability…but I was trying to get out ahead of that to keep it from being simply another thread that focused on just Arte-bashing because it’s tiresome.
This past offseason was a deviation from year’s prior. Arte increased payroll by a solid amount. He let a GM talk him out of a Dipoto big splash in Turner and into a number of investments that were not the Eppler one-year specials a la Cahill or Harvey. The Angels distributed their money around in several moves for once - Anderson, Urshela, Renfroe, Drury, Estevez - that were largely approved of by fan and critic. They didn’t all work out but it was a noted difference from years prior. And perhaps all credit should go to Perry, but the ‘farm’ has quickly produced MLBers from amateur scouting. Maybe that is in part a result of Perry purely, or perhaps the Angels have allocated some resources or scouting that is paying off. 
So while I have no doubt that Arte’s been a significant barrier in many ways, I also don’t think that means it *has* to continue that way. Last winter proved there can be some shift in their approach. Perhaps Ohtani walking furthers that, or the success of the young core. Perhaps a combo of those things and trusting Perry’s vision could allow Arte to step back or change a few of his negative habits. Do I expect that to happen overnight? No. A 180° shift? No. Comprehensive change? No. But he’s capable of change and we may be seeing that these last 12 months, which was my motivation in trying to steer this thread away from focusing on Arte and instead focusing on an organic approach Perry could take that could help Arte view a holistic change in how they do things for a year, provided it’s yielding results this time next year.

I respect your contributions, totprods, but just can't agree with this.  No organization came overcome those obstacles long-term regardless of a short-term plan (of which, I agree with you on).  Winning organizations don't have meddling owners reluctant to spend on the farm or analytics, and fire people who don't perform under their "keep the revenue streams going" approach.  None, in any sport.
The idea we can properly evaluate any GM knowing the parameters our owner puts in front of them is almost comical.  As fans, we just clamor so much for the next season that I sometimes think we lose perspective of the big picture (forrest from the trees, so to speak).
 

The Dipoto farms were beyond bad. If they could’ve been ranked like 50th out of 30 they would have. Some of those top prospects lists from the middle of his tenure are abysmal. 
Billy got the Halos most of their rotation; Sandoval, Canning, Detmers, plus Kyle Bradish, Rengifo, Adell, Marsh (who got us O’Hoppe), Stassi, then other guys who’ve cracked the majors like Warren, Wantz, Mattson, CRod, Criswell, Paris, Adams, Daniel, Soto, Kochanowicz, Caceres. He had several misses, and a lot of those guys have still yet to pan out, but that is a pretty solid success rate for a GM that had to both rebuild a farm and keep attempting to build a contender, and a critically valuable portion of this team still today. And what he was able to squeeze out of guys like JC Ramirez, Felix Pena, Parker Bridwell, Blake Parker, Taylor Cole and Hansel Robles, plus Jefry Marte, Tommy LaStella and Brian Goodwin, if only for even just a year of success out of each. All of those guys had at least one season for the Angels that was objectively solid if not good before they also became hurt or ineffective. It was an impressive track record of low-key transaction success.
It was still a bottom ten farm at best in that time, but the hole he had to dig out of capped what he could have done, not to mention a shortened 2020 draft. And landing Ohtani was still a master stroke. 
Dude could not get anything done via free agency though. Miss after miss. 

I respect your contributions, totprods, but just can't agree with this.  No organization came overcome those obstacles long-term regardless of a short-term plan (of which, I agree with you on).  Winning organizations don't have meddling owners reluctant to spend on the farm or analytics, and fire people who don't perform under their "keep the revenue streams going" approach.  None, in any sport.
The idea we can properly evaluate any GM knowing the parameters our owner puts in front of them is almost comical.  As fans, we just clamor so much for the next season that I sometimes think we lose perspective of the big picture (forrest from the trees, so to speak).
 

Honestly, Billy Eppler was the best GM this team has had since Stoneman. The results weren't there at the top level but the manner in which he unfu**ed everything Dipoto did, with an owner interfering where he shouldn't, was nothing short of spectacular. 
Perry, he drafts well. So good that the top prospect lists won't recognize it because the guys he keeps picking are major leaguers before they have a chance to build up that Adell type of hype. As far as being a GM, I'm not impressed. The jury's still out though. 
Like if we could have Perry as a scouting director, running the drafts and hiring internal personnel, while having Billy in charge of the minor league system and contract negotiations, we'd be good to go. 

Open to any deal that makes the team better this year, so long as it makes the team next year better as well. Just don't want to lock up payroll on someone like Snell or Bellinger when I don't see either being worth the risk, not for a team with this many needs. 
In essence, if I were GM and treating this year as a transitional year, I would move Drury and Estevez simply because both aren't likely to impact the 2025 team, which is where I'm focusing (and beyond). I'd deal both this winter while they have the most value.
And I would have no problem replacing both via free agency this year as well, signing guys to 2-yr deals so we do have that talent in '25. 
For instance, flipping Drury then signing Candelario to replace him in '24 and be in the fold for '25, and signing someone like Phil Maton to be the closer to replace Estevez and have next year's closer role locked up too. Or Matsui.

Don’t think you can have an honest discussion about the performance of the GMs without acknowledging that they both have no say in the direction of the team (must compete every year regardless if it’s the best interest of the franchise), and simultaneously aren’t permitted to exceed the luxury tax (essentially giving them a hard cap).  What any of Reagins, Dipoto, Eppler, or Minasian might have done if given full control over baseball ops could be completely different than the results we’re debating.  As far as your assessment of how they performed within those confines, I for the most part agree with you

Who do you think it is that mandates this?

I agree with most of this save money for next year. Make small signings this year to fill out roster and give young players a chance to develop more. 

I'd do very little. No big contracts, just a few minor signings to fill up the roster. Re-invest the money into the farm system. Tend the garden for a few years, see what grows.
 

Agree on not really caring to see Ohtani back next year, or Trout for that matter.  Moving on from both is perfectly fine with me and has been for a few years now.  Would much prefer a full on fire sale rebuild than the way Arte has forced the team to operate for the last 10 years

Listen, you may think that's the answer for some who don't agree with your posts, but while this is an open community for Angels fans to share their opinions, I have to uphold the standard of this website whereby we take pride in intelligent conversation here.
Your posts are chipping away at those standards and taking away from the flow of good conversations here. 
I think you'd be better suited to comment on some Halos Nation Facebook page's posts and not here.
I mean no disrespect here, but I'm going to need you to clean it up or we'll have to find a new home for you sir. 
Thank you..

Wright, Soroka, Luiz Gohara, Kolby Allard, Bryse Wilson, Toukki Toussaint, Joey Wentz.... Tucker Davidson. I may be missing a couple but , these guys were at one time considered one of the greatest collection of pitching prospects assembled and none of them are still with the Braves... Just goes to show the old line about pitching prospects and attrition remains as true as ever.
Keep drafting arms.

Pitching, both starting and relief, will determine the success or failure of the team in 24.

Perry isn’t a bum GM. 

People are reacting as if hiring a manager means something. 

nothing is more obstructive to running your business than the dissenting voices of smart people.   

I voted other, because my real answer is, does it even matter?  

no.  I just thought it was dumb for them to expose Chris considering the types of AAAA players who filter on and off the back end of the 40 man who have zero upside.  

Fuck it. Get Snell. Idgaf. 
Nothing we can add will drastically change the team's fortune. We need to stay healthy (ROFL) and get significant improvement from what we already have. 
This is such a lame offseason. And I expect the normal Arte shenanigans.

Here are the important dates and deadlines for the coming weeks and months via CBS Sports.
Nov. 2: As of 9 a.m. ET on Thursday, all eligible players (i.e. those with six-plus years of service time) are free agents. It is important to note free agents cannot sign with new teams just yet. They have to wait five days for that. The first five days of the offseason are an exclusive negotiating period in which the player can only talk money with his previous team. Here are our top 25 free agents.
Nov. 5: Gold Glove winners announced during a live ESPN broadcast at 7:30 p.m. ET. Here are this year's Gold Glove finalists.
Nov. 6: Finalists for 2023's major awards will be announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. Those awards are Manager of the Year, Rookie of the Year, Cy Young, and Most Valuable Player. Three finalists are announced for each award in each league. As a reminder, voting for these awards was completed before the postseason. These are regular-season awards.  
Nov. 6: Most contract option decisions are due on this date. Some contracts specify a different date (the Yankees had to make a decision on Zack Britton's 2022 club option in November 2020, for example), but the vast majority have to be made within five days of the end of the World Series. Club options are controlled by the team, player options and opt-outs are controlled by the player, and mutual options are kind of pointless. They are essentially a way to move money to next year's payroll.    
Some option decisions are no-brainers, like the Giants picking up their $10 million club option for Alex Cobb (even after his recent hip surgery). Among this offseason's notable contract option decisions are Tim Anderson ($14 million club option), Josh Bell (can opt out of one year and $16.5 million), Kyle Hendricks ($16 million club option), and Eduardo Rodriguez (can opt out of three years and $49 million).
Nov. 6: Deadline for teams to tender their eligible free agents the qualifying offer. Specifically, the deadline is 5 p.m. ET. The qualifying offer is a one-year contract worth the average of the top 125 salaries, or $20.5 million this offseason, according to the New York Post. To be eligible for the qualifying offer a player must have spent the entire 2023 season with his team and have never received the qualifying offer previously. For example, the Angels can make Shohei Ohtani the qualifying offer, but the Rangers cannot make Jordan Montgomery the qualifying offer because he was traded at midseason. Marcus Stroman, on the other hand, cannot be offered a qualifying offer because he accepted one from the Mets after the 2020 season.
Nov. 6: Free agency begins. The five-day exclusive negotiating period ends and free agents are truly free. They can negotiate and sign with any team as of this date. That said, much like the regular season, MLB free agency is a marathon, not a sprint. We (probably) won't see a rash of signings on Day 1 because MLB is not a salary-capped league, and free agents aren't worried about getting left out in the cold when cap space runs out. Here again are our top 25 free agents.
Nov. 7-9: GM Meetings in Scottsdale. Generally speaking, the GM Meetings cover off-the-field matters, such as rule changes. But, when you put all 30 GMs in one place, inevitably deals get discussed and sometimes completed. Last year, the Braves traded Jake Odorizzi to the Rangers for Kolby Allard at the GM Meetings, for example. Also, the groundwork is often laid for trades that are completed at a later date at the GM Meetings.
Nov. 9: Silver Sluggers announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. If Silver Sluggers are your thing, this is the date for you. Last year, a utility player Silver Slugger was added, and this year there's a new team Silver Slugger. So that's the nine usual positions plus the super utility player award plus the team award in each league, bringing us to 22 Silver Sluggers total.
Nov. 13: Rookies of the Year announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. In our unofficial September voting, Diamondbacks outfielder Corbin Carroll and Orioles infielder Gunnar Henderson won the award.
Nov. 14: Managers of the Year announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. In our unofficial September voting, Brewers manager Craig Counsell and Orioles manager Brandon Hyde were victorious.
Nov. 14: The deadline for free agents to accept or reject the qualifying offer is 4 p.m. ET.  Players who accept the qualifying offer sign that one-year, $20.5 million contract and remain with their team (players who accept the qualifying offer cannot be traded until June 15 without their consent). Free agents who reject the qualifying offer are attached to draft pick compensation. Their former team receives a draft pick if they sign elsewhere, and their new team has to forfeit a draft pick and international bonus money. Ohtani, Cody Bellinger, and Blake Snell are among the free agents who will surely reject the qualifying offer and instead sign a lucrative multi-year contract this offseason.
Nov. 14: The deadline for teams to add eligible minor leaguers to the 40-man roster to protect them from the Rule 5 Draft is 6 p.m. ET. Generally speaking, college players drafted no later than 2020 and high school players drafted no later than 2019 are Rule 5 Draft eligible this winter, as are players signed internationally no later than 2019. Among the notable Rule 5 Draft eligible prospects this offseason are Brewers catcher Jeferson Quero and Twins outfielder Emmanuel Rodriguez. Expect both (and many others) to be added to the 40-man roster on this date. 
It should be noted there are usually several minor trades on this date as teams get their 40-man roster in order. Last year the Rays traded JT Chargois and Xavier Edwards to the Marlins at the Rule 5 Draft protection deadline to clear 40-man roster space.
Nov. 14-16: Owners meetings in Arlington, Tex. The quarterly owners meetings cover big picture business matters and are rarely a source of hot stove news or rumors, though November's meetings are notable because the owners are set to vote on the Athletics' proposed relocation to Las Vegas. The A's need 22 votes from the other 29 owners to approve relocation.
Nov. 15: Cy Youngs announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. In our unofficial September voting, Snell and Yankees ace Gerrit Cole won the award.
Nov. 16: MVPs announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. In our unofficial September voting, Ohtani and Braves star Ronald Acuña Jr. took home gold.
Nov. 17: Non-tender deadline. This is the deadline for teams to offer their pre-arbitration and arbitration-eligible players a contract for 2024. Contracts do not have to be signed yet. An offer just has to be tendered. Players who do not receive a contract offer are considered "non-tendered" and become free agents. Notable players are non-tendered every offseason as teams determine their salary outweighs their performance, and the trade market turns up nothing worthwhile. Bellinger and Jeimer Candelario were among the biggest names non-tendered last offseason.
Nov. 20: The 2024 Hall of Fame ballot will be released. Just the ballot will be announced, to be clear. The voting results and 2024 Hall of Fame class will be revealed at a later date. Here are the players eligible for this year's ballot. Most notably, this is Gary Sheffield's tenth and final year of eligibility. This is also Year 3 on the ballot for Alex Rodriguez, Year 9 for Billy Wagner, and Year 6 for Todd Helton. Adrián Beltré, Joe Mauer, and Chase Utley are among the first-timers set to join the Hall of Fame ballot this year.
Dec. 1: Competitive balance draft picks are assigned. These are extra draft picks given to teams that fall in the bottom 10 in revenue and/or market size. There is overlap between the two groups, so there are usually 14 competitive balance picks awarded each year, not 20. Competitive balance picks are MLB's only tradeable draft picks.
Dec. 3: The Hall of Fame's Contemporary Baseball Era Non-Players Committee voting results will be announced during a live MLB Network broadcast. The Hall of Fame announced several changes to their Era Committee voting structure last year and the Contemporary Baseball Era Non-Players Committee considers "retired managers, umpires and executives whose greatest contributions to the game were realized from the 1980-present era." Here is this year's eight-person ballot.
Dec. 3-6: Winter Meetings in Nashville. This is typically when all hot stove hell breaks loose. The Winter Meetings are the busiest days of the offseason and feature plenty of trades, free agent signings, and rumors. It is four days of non-stop hot stove action. Historically, the biggest moves of the offseason are completed at the Winter Meetings. GMs can talk face-to-face with agents and other GMs to get things done.
Dec. 5: Draft lottery during a live MLB Network broadcast. In an effort to curb tanking, MLB and the MLBPA agreed to a lottery to determine the top six picks in the annual amateur draft. The 18 non-postseason teams each have a shot at the No. 1 pick, though the worst teams have the highest odds. Here are this year's odds for the No. 1 selection in the 2024 draft (via MLB.com😞

Teams that pay into revenue sharing can not select in the lottery in back-to-back years, so the Nationals, who had the No. 2 pick in this year's draft, are out of the lottery despite finishing with baseball's fifth-worst record. Teams in Washington's situation can not pick higher than No. 10 overall. The lottery determines the top six picks, then the next 12 picks are in reverse order of the standings. The 12 postseason teams are then ordered by their finish.
Dec. 6: Rule 5 Draft. By rule, players selected in the Rule 5 Draft must remain on their new team's MLB roster all season in 2024, otherwise they must go through waivers and be offered back to their original team. Teams don't expect to get difference-makers in the Rule 5 Draft (Jose Bautista was the exception, not the rule). They often look for middle relievers, platoon bats, and lottery tickets, and most players wind up back with their original team. Last offseason's notable Rule 5 Draft selections were Kevin Kelly (Rays), Ryan Noda (Athletics), and Blake Sabol (Giants).
Jan. 12: Deadline for teams and arbitration-eligible players to submit salary figures for 2024. The player files what he believes he should be paid while the team files with what they believe the player should be paid. This is only the filing deadline and the two sides can still agree to a contract of any size even after filing salary figures. The vast majority of arbitration-eligible players agree to a contract before the filing deadline. Matt Swartz and MLB Trade Rumors released their salary arbitration projections in October. Their model has proven to be quite accurate over the years.
Jan. 15: The 2024 international signing period opens at 9 a.m. ET. The annual signing period used to run from July 2nd to June 25th, though MLB and the MLBPA agreed to push the start of the 2020-21 and 2021-22 signing periods back to January because of the pandemic, and now the new January start is permanent. Here is MLB.com's list of 2024's top 50 international prospects. Last year, the Padres landed catcher Ethan Salas on the first day of the international signing period. He made it all the way to Double-A as a 17-year-old this summer.
Jan. 23: The 2024 Hall of Fame class will be announced during a live MLB Network broadcast at 6 p.m. ET. The ballot is revealed in November, votes are compiled in the following weeks, then the results are announced in the dog days of the offseason. Among holdovers on the ballot, Helton was the closest to getting in without actually getting in last year. He received 72.2% of the vote and 75% is needed for induction. Beltré, Helton, and Wagner appear to have the best chance at getting into the Hall of Fame this voting cycle.
Jan. 29 to Feb. 16: Arbitration hearings. Inevitably a few arbitration-eligible players and their teams will be unable to come to terms on a contract, and they wind up in front of an arbitration panel. Each side states their case -- hearings can be contentious because the team essentially outlines the player's shortcomings and explains why he deserves a lower salary than he believes -- and the three-person panel picks either the salary the player filed or the salary the team filed, nothing in-between. Again, teams and players can work out a contract of any size prior to a hearing, even after filing salary figures. Luis Arraez, Corbin Burnes, Max Fried, and Kyle Tucker were among the players to go to an arbitration hearing last offseason.
Mid-February: Spring training camps open across Florida and Arizona. Each team sets their own reporting dates for pitchers and catchers and then position players, though they'll all be up and running by the second full week of February. Cactus League and Grapefruit League play begins Feb. 22 and all 30 teams will be action by Feb. 24.
March 20-21: Seoul Series. The NL West rival Dodgers and Padres will open the 2024 season with two games in Seoul, South Korea. They will be MLB's first ever regular-season games in Korea. Following these two games, the Dodgers and Padres will return to Arizona and play their last few spring training games before resuming their regular seasons.
March 28: Opening Day 2024. All 30 clubs will be in action on Opening Day, with six of the 15 games featuring intradivision matchups. Next year will be Year 2 with the league's new, more balanced schedule. Once again, every team will play at least one series against every other team in 2024. No more rotating divisions for interleague play. 

I can appreciate your faith in our organization's abilities.  I wish I had the same faith, but two decades of incredibly questionable decision-making has me quite down.  And yes, I believe it starts with Arte, but that has been regurgitated to death.

You couldn't have worded my pending reply to MMC any better.  To me, it's more about what we are "protecting" in terms of potential help versus the rather small chance of what he could become.  Entirely different discussion if we were loaded at the younger levels.  But we're not.  
As has been stated, we should be looking for guys from other teams with this profile given our baren organization.

I can appreciate your faith in our organization's abilities.  I wish I had the same faith, but two decades of incredibly questionable decision-making has me quite down.  And yes, I believe it starts with Arte, but that has been regurgitated to death.