floplag

27 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

No it has already changed over the last two years and has taken two years to see results.

The 2024 opening day lineup will likely have 8 of the 9 starters either drafted by the Angels or traded for and promoted to the bigs by the Angels.

They haven’t had that kind of results in a long, long time.

You are being chicken little and ignoring reality.

 

If thats how you measure success over the actual standings, all i can say is good luck with that. 

50 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

No not more of the same.

The approach is not failed.  The execution has failed.

The team needs better drafting.  Better player development.  Better choices in free agent signings.

 

And im sure that will all change before nest season starts.
Of course it is more of the same, how is this any different than whats been done year after year after year that has yet to yield and positive results.
When does your plan see this team being relevant again as we collectively have had this same discussion on this board every off season for as long as i can remember... and gone nowhere!
If there was ever a time for drastic, this is it. 

6 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Go forward with the good group of young players they have now, and carefully supplement that core with smart free agent signings.

And keep drafting and developing players so that the core continues to improve in quality and quantity.

This is happening now but you are too rattled to recognize it.

This is not “more of the same” or “playing the middle.”

It’s the right strategy.  The difference in outcome is the execution of the strategy and good decision making within that strategy, not the strategy itself.

So... more of the same.
No im not rattled, its been proven a failed approach.
Weve done that for the last how many years now?   What have we achieved?  If anything weve gone backwards.
Are you aware of one of the modern definitions of insanity about doing the same thing expecting a different result?

8 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

You only see drastic, extreme options.

I suppose if you get hungry your only two options are to dine at French Laundry tonight for $800 a person or to start dragging the back yard to drop some seed to farm vegetables.

The Angel fans have gone through some relatively miserable years.  The frustration is valid.

But that doesn’t mean the only options are to do drastic things.

Then offer up another answer.
You cant have it both ways, playing the middle has brought us to this point... weve failed at every aspect of it. 
You want another option, great, lets hear it but if it involved more of the same count me out. 

44 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

That’s the real problem.

meaning?

From here out, there are two paths i see.

#1 blow it up, rebuild, trade everyone, be terrible for 5 years or more and them come back with a vengeance.. the Hou/Bal/everyone else models weve seen in the last 20 years. 

#2 Go full Cohen.  Do what the Mets or Padres have done in recent years.  No, there is certainly no guarantees but its the only way this club become relevant  in the next few years.  Resign Ohtani, stop worrying about the lux tax, go full ham and bite the bullet for the next 3-5 years tax wise.  

Weve tried the in between thing for the last how many years and its an epic failure.  All weve achieved is being about a 500 team with a terrible farm.  There is no defending what we have done, the facts speak for themselves. 

15 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

I'm not a big Arte fan, but I doubt the following is Arte's fault:

He goes for Gerrit Cole,  but Cole a Yankees fan growing up goes to New York.

He pivots and signs the best free agent bat on the market in Anthony Rendon coming off a World Series MVP and one of the more consistent bats in MLB ahead of signing with the Angels.

Rendon becomes the most injury prone player that I've seen in Angels history, though a lot of those injuries were not necessarily his fault. 

Arte had nothing to do with the way the Angels have been unable to stay healthy this season. Could be a totally different story if their key guys stay relatively healthy this season. 

No, it isnt his fault, what is though is letting it hamper other moves.
He signed 3 guys to over half the lux tax payroll then refused to go over it when it was the only path available to us.
I know he has now, but literally none of it is future commit beyond the end of the season so he hedged that bet as well.
Rendon shouldnt have crippled this club with him at the helm, he let that happen.
And thats before we get to the handling of Ohtani thats also on him. 

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

He did try but the plan failed miserably. Unfortunately, I think he gets canned as a result. 

None of this is on him.  If he gets canned Arte is a bigger idiot than i thought.
He might quit, i wouldnt blame him, but there is no logical way you can put any of this one him.
his hands have been tied virtually the whole time and he still got most of what we needed done.

41 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Yes, extend him. But also enter into a rebuild after Shohei leaves and start cumulating prospects. Flip Moose and anyone else with value next deadline for more prospects. 

This will be the only path open the club if this goes south.
Trade everyone, rebuild. 
Yes... everyone. 

Get ready for a lot of these threads as it applies to nearly half the 25 man roster   

20 minutes ago, Hubs said:

And 27 when Trout Retires....they should retire the number twice. Salmon too.. Anderson Maybe. Finley Maybe. Weaver Maybe. 

 

27 is a given, but yeah, 

41 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Hmmm wonder if Grichuk is actually gonna wear #15. Last time this almost happened Jason Castro found out it had been Salmon's and switched in deference. 

He's currently listed as #15 on the official site.

Would be cool to see #15 and #16 in the outfield again though....

Personally, i dont think 15, 16, or 25 should be worn, but thats me. 

12 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Only problem is who do you bump from the rotation? Ohtani, Giolito, Sandoval, Detmers, Canning and Anderson are all pitching well.

or do you say eff it and move Sandy for Snell and Hader/Lugo (only because the latter has an option for next year, so you’d at least have him for rotation next year) and go for it that route?

Its a fair point, all are pitching well, but all have also had issues at one time or another.
Snell is another interesting name.
I dont move Sandy for a rental, but im might take advantage of the recent success of the others to create that three headed monster. 

A fair question.. for me, i remember Autry doing his best.. he was the uber wealthy guy that could go ham and he legit had to live within a budget but he loved the game.
Arte, to me, hasnt done that, and the game is more of a business to him then any love, at least thats my view without knowing the man personally.  He came in with a lot of promises, and maybe the game changed around hium or maybe he just didnt think it worth it but whatever the reason he just hasnt done what i would call "his best effort" to date.  Hes done whats best for the business, not whats best for the baseball team.
To be fair my memories might be a little faded but thats how i remember it. 

22 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Once Trout is back, they'll have four OFers, though. 

Agreed, and with Cron in the mix and Cabbage already on the roster why i mentioned them as 4th options till then.   If they ned more Phillips is still there.  No idea what Adell status is right now but no ones saying anything so i assume not good. 
Bottom line i dont see OF as a big need as others might. 

All of a sudden the division is as much within reach as the wildcard after TX getting swept by the Pad and going 3-7 in the last 10.  The division has come back to us.

IMO we still need a few things, but, and this might be the first time im saying this another frontline SP would be the smart move.  I wanted an impact bat, was hoping for somethin g like Goldschmidt but Cron is what we got. 

Were going to need to limit other teams till we get everyone back to score more runs, we dont really have room for another bat right now after recent deals. 

Yes, we need a backup C that can actually hit a little, and a replacement 4th OF wouldn't suck although Phillips is still in the org for that 4th and Cabbage can also play the OF, and 100% another leverage reliever. 

IF you could get Verlander for example, unlikely i know but if... youd have a front 3 as good as anyone in the game.   Maybe also get a reliever like Ottavino.

Others can likely offer more, no doubt, but that would be the coup Perry needs to make in my view.  

Well, one thing i dont think anyone, myself included, can say anymore is that Arte/Perry arent trying.
They are still covering their bases with acquiring expiring contracts over any long term commitments payroll wise so going over the tax on the short term but nothing long term, a total Arte move
But i cant fault what they are doing.
A day left to finish the job.

Of course.  A heathy Rendon is still our best option. 
Do i expect him back, no, and he should not come back till he is 100%

Well, this was my fear, tossing what little is on the farm, for rentals.

On the one hand i like it, its aggressive, its what we need to do and more should be coming if were truly going all in.  On the other, yeah this is going to sting if it all fails and none of them stick around.

This is one of the biggest risks ive seen any team take in recent memory, maybe ever... they have the talent to make such a run but the desk is stacked.

IMO we still need an impact bat, perhaps at 1B (Goldschmidt?) maybe even another arm in the pen to stop the mid game heart attacks. 

Were going to be dead last or close to it on the farm ranking either way, no time to get shy now. 

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

He had exceeded the tax once, albeit years ago, and this March said explicitly “if we’re in it at the All-Star break, I want to be able to have enough cash to pick somebody up”, in response to why he didn’t go further this winter.

And I didn’t say there were no impact players available, just that there aren’t many. Once you factor in all the other buyers, the Angels limited farm, and the still long shot chance they have, buying aggressively for impact players might not be easy. 

Fortifying the team with a few upgrades on the margins and adding one good arm might be enough, should they have a little luck and some healthy players back. 

He has said a lot of things... that he would for the right guy etc... when he makes that real effort, ill beleive it.  

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I said they don’t have to be impact players.  They need better support players, players who are better at supporting their impact players.  You choose to argue that. 

lol, the master of double talk.
Carry on

34 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Not many impact players available...

They need guys who are upgrades, either by virtue of talent or track record, over guys like Chad Wallach, Trey Cabbage, Michael Stefanic, Eduardo Escobar, Andrew Velazquez on the position player side. 

Logan O'Hoppe replaces Wallach (though I still think adding a veteran back-up C like Hedges or Barnhart or Gomes would be shrewd). 
Drury goes a long way in addressing the Escobar/Cabbage/Stefanic replacement...theoretically, if Rendon returns he'd finish that. Not totally unreasonable to consider CIF upgrades, but bottom of list. Velazquez has at least some utility as an all-glove late-inning replacement who can steal a base and lay down a bunt.

On the pitching side...Reyes, Davidson, possibly Soriano and Webb, maybe one of Silseth and Anderson. Loup seems to be safe now. 
Anderson has pitched well enough that you can presume he's not going anywhere. He's either in rotation or, if struggling, bumped into long-relief. 
Reyes hasn't really shown much. Webb has started to struggle quite a bit, like Devenski. They're here for now but both are expendable. 
Davidson is there until a better option for the mop-up guy emerges. I could see Barria, Suarez, or Anderson claiming that spot if arms are added ahead of them on the chart.
As good as Soriano and Silseth have been, they're likely on the bubble simply because they have options and far too often someone will need to get bumped for a fresh arm from AAA. 
Bachman and Joyce's return timelines are not clear, but IMO in an ideal situation, you'd have them rotating between 1-2 roster spots in August with Soriano (if they're even back) until rosters expand. 
That leaves room for a couple arms added to the pen, maybe one to the rotation (Canning, Sandoval, and Detmers are locked in at this point). 

To me, their deadline list is:

• One SP; doesn't matter if it's at the top (Stroman, Giolito, Flaherty) in the middle (Lugo, Lorenzen) or the bottom (Lynn, Lyles, Carrasco) - adding any SP would help settle other guys into roles, at a minimum. Of course, a better arm is ideal, but have to weigh the cost, especially if it's cheaper to upgrade small here and go bigger on...
• Two relievers: ideally one who has options and another who is a dependable vet. This provides insurance if our young arms can't return, but doesn't clog a spot, and also helps anchor the back-end
• a vet back-up C. Once O'Hoppe returns, there's a strong chance we lose Wallach on waivers. At that point, our catcher depth is again super thin should anything happen to Matt or Logan. Get someone now and either roll with 3 C until Logan is back (let Thaiss/new guy spot some innings at 1B in place of probably Escobar/Cabbage) or DFA Wallach now and see if you're lucky enough to stash him at AAA

I disagree, there is impact available if Arte is willing to do what hes never done, break the tax. 

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

It’s not depth I’m looking for. It’s major league starters that are better than the depth we have that’s starting. “Desperation” “pray”. 

OK, but thats not what you said so... whatever nevermind. 

28 minutes ago, Stradling said:

They don’t need “impact” players. They need better support players. 

i could not disagree with this more.
Support players we have, the problem is were starting them. 
Impact is exactly what they need, someone to move the needle on the standings.  If all your doing is going for depth, you might as well not bother it wont increase our playoff chances. 
Isnt that the goal with this desperation ruin?  to make the post and somehow pray he stays? 

I think its a tremendous mistake but IF they are going down the road of a desperation run to try to get a WC or keep Ohtani, it cant be half measures, its go big or go home.
One guy inst enough, no matter who he is.  We have the two best in the game and were still floundering back at 500.