Wisconsin27

Thanks, Doc.  I read this board about 3-5 times daily.  It's a bit of an addiction, admittedly.  I've just learned I can't predict how folks will react to my post.  Consider me a bit gun-shy.  

Pitching and defense wins.

Cost-controlled, young pitching is hard to come by.

We have some.  Let's not deplete it by trying to fill other holes that may be easier to fill.  

Patrick and Detmers are not available, imo.  And I'm of the opinion that Suarez was rushed a bit and his best is yet-to-come.  While I agree we should entertain offers for him, I don't sell based on his current value, but rather on what he might become.....or I don't sell at all.

The value in being able to spend $ on position players while you have cost-controlled, high-end, homegrown pitching is just enormous.  And I think/hope we have more on the way (Silseth, Rod, Bush, even Canning, etc.).  We really need to tread carefully.  I might feel differently if I felt we were really close and had a specific need to get us over the top.  I just don't think we are there yet and would prefer we stay patient.  Hell, there are some who think we need an entire rebuild....yet any rebuild would begin with trying to find exactly what we have....upside, cost-controlled, young starters.

I know I'll get beat up for this take, but I'd prefer we make sure LF is taken care of with a 3 war, offensive threat as the priority.  Benintendi is an example.  I realize we "want" a complete player at SS, but given the ownership situation, I'm don't think the timing allows for it (i.e. long-term deal).  And I'm actually fine with that.  Defense at SS matters.  If our offense can stay healthy (i.e. Rendon, Trout, Ward, Walsh), adding a good bat in LF and Sassi pulling his head out will do wonders.  To the point of a D-first SS (i.e. a poormans Simmons....Velazquez/Fletcher) won't hurt quite as much.  If those primary players don't stay healthy, it's not likely we compete anyway.

I just hope like hell we don't settle for mediocre/"hope" type players at both SS and LF.  Go heavy in LF and add a cost-effective piece to compete at SS.  We obviously need to add a piece or two the BP, have limited resources at the moment, and Perry needs to win.  Organizationally, I think this makes the most sense as other posters have noted the current Big 4 of the FA market SS's will likely decline with age relative to the length of contract they will receive.

Like others have said, if he pitches to a low 4 era over three years, it's sound value.

I'm not a fan, though, of losing international $ and a 2nd round pick for a 32 year old.  

What I don't understand is why the Dodgers didn't sign him for 3/39.  If they were sold that he could come close to repeating his performance, I would think they would have done it.  What am I missing?

He's not the problem, fills a need, and his overall numbers won't decline.  I'd say he's part of the solution if we are trying to contend.

Injuries suck, but everyone has them over 162.  

He likely won't garner a trade value worth what he means to this squad.  He fills a spot with comfort, at the end of the day.

LF, on the other hand.....

I just wish we'd let him cook a little longer in the minors.  We have had success advancing players quickly through the minor levels, but not so much with the move to the majors.  What's the rush!?!

I guess I don't understand the Beane hate.  He's been unbelievably successful given what is has been dealt (i.e the doormat of MLB in every way possible....stadium, fan turnout, revenue limites, etc).

I have nowhere near the eye for prospects like IP, Second, Milwaukee, and others on here have.  But, personally, I see SO much to like in this kid.  Great head on his shoulders (thanks, Chuck!), toosly, athletic, strong defender, excellent pop, etc.  I see a good MLB player in Adams....as in a "fixture."

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It hasn’t been like this since Maddon year 1.  This year is the first year we’ve had pitching. All of that pitching is controllable for next year and outside of Ohtani the next 4-6 years. 

This!  I can't recall a time where we were quite this flush with young, controllable arms.  And I am equally excited about the ones that will be arriving over the next two years (Silseth, C-ROD?, Canning, Bush, Bachman, Joyce, etc.).  

I totally understand and agree with ALF's perspective, though.  We get so excited every offseason and try to convince ourselves that enough has been done to be competitive.  I see where my original post was a rinse-repeat version of this cycle that we've been in.  Poorly run organizations usually show their colors and it's likely that will be the case again next year.

But when you take a big-picture view, we sure to appear to have some solid pieces in place.   And that at least keeps me hopeful.

32 minutes ago, Trendon said:

The good thing is that the problems the Angels have are fixable. They don’t need to get an ace or get a middle of the order bat.

But what they do need is to find at least average production at C, 1B, SS, LF, and a couple SP’s and RP’s.

 

My vision for 2023:

SP: Ohtani/Sandoval/#3 SP/Detmers/#5 SP/Suarez

RP: Quijada/Herget/Loup/Tepera/RP #5/Wantz/Barría/Davidson

Lineup: Starting C/Starting 1B/Fletcher/Rendon/SS/LF/Trout/Ward/Ohtani

Bench: Stassi/Rengifo/Moniak/Bench 4

Rengifo on the bench provides 3B insurance for Rendon

Some internal candidates could step up for SP5, RP5, or B4

I agree with most, but don't see a need to put Regnifo on the bech.

I am not necessarily an optimist by nature and this year has been among the toughest to handle since I became a fan in '77.  Every year, I get this same feeling that "if we only address..." and then we ultimately land a few players that I become convinced will solve shit, only to be let down.  So I get it.

However, when I look at our upcoming roster, there is legitimately reason to be optimistic/excited.  I know it's not popular here, but I am a big fan of a healthy Fletcher.  And Rengifo has proven to be MLB caliber.  With the return of Rendo (good or bad, he's going to be 3B), our infield is set outside of 1B.  I realize folks want a proven SS, but given our resource ($) situation, I view it as a "wish," not a "need."

Going into '23, I see areas for an impact/difference at LF, 1B, C, and relief pitching.  Shore those up and with health, we are a playoff contender.  

Yes, Adell could solidify LF by showing out the rest of the way (fingers crossed), Stassi could improve, etc. But we need to have adequate replacements for if/when underperformance/injuries occur.  We all are seeing how shitty our replacements currently are.  It's a joke.  Having MLB caliber guys ready in those situations will do wonders.  Why?   Because this club isn't going anywhere if our super stars aren't healthy for the majority of the year.  When a non-superstar is out, we need MLB production from their replacement.  We don't need "Trout" production, but rather something that will keep the ship afloat.

We are unique in that our SP is pretty damn solid going into the offseason.  Not many teams with playoff hopes can say they'd like to add a 3/4 and/or 5/6 starter to be competitive.  We've got proven guys who will only get better and guys at our farm that have the pedigree to be excited about.  And that's not factoring the Canning/C-Rod/etc. we have.  

Our relief corps seems to be missing one dominant guy as closer.  Identifying that player is probably the toughest thing to do in professional sports, given the volatility.   

It's weird to say this during such a horsehit seatson, but I don't feel we our that far off.  A big bp signing, a couple of middle of the road SP's, and some upgrades at LF/back-up MIF should do it.....given health of our big guys.

We can take the debbie downer approach and add a bunch of other needs.  At the end of day, if Rendon, Trout, Ohatani, Ward, and others stay healthy, I honestly feel it's going to come down to what I shared above

I really appreciate how self-reflective he is.  He's not satisfied and willing to look inward.  It's refreshing.

53 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

I said this in the offseason and kind of got laughed at by some, but this team ignored the offense too much to be successful. The Valazquez’ and Wade’s of the world can’t be in the lineup as starters if you want to win. Run prevention matters but so does run creation, and we absolutely have sucked at that. 
 

Time to swing a trade for a SS and real left fielder. Backup catcher is a must too. Trout/Ohtani/Rendon/Stassi/ward are the only guys on the roster right now that should be seen as everyday guys next season ImO. Everyone else needs to be re-evaluated. Guys like Rengifo and Fletcher are useful in the proper role. I don’t know about Adell and Walsh at this point

 

i don’t feel like the pitching is far off at all. They’ve got some real talent there for the first time in a long long time. It’s just a shame they have a bunch of hacks at the plate now

 

Given all of our needs, I'm not sure we can not just "count on" Rengifo taking on a full-time role.  If we're going to be competitive next year, we'll (obviously) need Trout, Rendon, and Ohtani healthy.  That is the starting point for me.  With our limited resources, I think we'll also have to count on Ward in RF, Rengifo, and Stassi (as part of a platoon).  I'm in the minority here, but I still think Fletch played hurt last year and has a big role next year.  Hell, if we can find a solid 2B/SS vet for depth, I'm even okay with him at SS.

We have many needs; a partner for Stassi and Walsh and an actual player or two for INF depth.  I get the desire for a true starting SS, but where is going to come from if we still need a legitimate starter and some bp pieces?  So many holes that I if I had to sacrifice a position, it would be to avoid spending big on a SS.  Fletch is an ideal role player, but we might not be able to afford that luxury.  That's why I want him in the lineup every day the rest of the way to see what we've got.

And for all that is holly, can we f-ing stop with the Gosslein shit and get someone in there that we can at least hope might contribute in the future?  Anyone young and with potential, I don't care.  Season is lost, get someone a taste.  Jesus.

Interesting post, especially coming from Doc.  Lots of frustration and a desire for a change in direction.  And that, to me, is the true essence of the post.  It's not going to change while Arte is here.  He's a businessman looking to make money.  Expecting a different approach than the one we've had for the last decade is wishful thinking.  He's going to sign his stars and keep butts in the seats.

Personally, and I know this will come back to me at some point, I'm not a fan of an Ohtani long-term marriage.  He'll be 30 years old at the time of his massive deal.  We've paid for past productions SO many times, why would anyone think this will be different?  Hell, we are a bit worried about Mike and he's already an all-time great.  Ohtani's "wear and tear" and the mental fortitude of doing what hardly ever man has done HAS to take a toll.  Personally, I'm not interested in paying a king's ransom for his age 35-40 seasons.  And no offense to Doc, but I don't see a single reason for him to take an opt-out filled contract with the Angels.  He's better than that unless it's written in such a way that he has all of the power....i.e. we pay if he doesn't perform to the level of opting out.  He's on a tight window to cash in.

I don't see Arte selling the guy this summer.  Not because it wouldn't help us from a baseball sense (payroll flexibility, filling some holes, recouping "something" from his imminent departure), but because he puts butts in the seats.  And honestly, if we "go for it" and see where we are at the deadline next year, even if it means a lessor return, I'm game.  But the Arte I think I've come to know is going to have him on the roster to create excitement and sell tickets.

I love Ohtani and he'd be difficult to replace from the pitching side.  However, signing him to a massive deal with an owner we know won't go over his payroll threshold will only keep us in purgatory for a longer period of time.  This franchise is a mess and I simply don't see 1. a reasonable way out of it without trading Ohtani and 2. have no confidence Arte/management have the ability to create a plan to do so.

We can talk about gutting the farm and going for it.  Hell, for the purpose of doing something different I'd enjoy the change-up.  And like others, I don't feel we are as far away as our record indicates.  But in the end, the decision to extend Ohtani is still going to be there as the elephant in the room.  To me, the worst-case scenario is to extend him and maintain Arte's current payroll threshold.  It will be rinse and repeat.

I just re-read this before posting and see where I made this all about Ohtani (off topic from the original thread, so I apologize).  I just think any "gut the farm and go for it" conversation has to address our plans for him and signing him (as Doc suggested) means Arte HAS TO go over his payroll threshold and I just don't think he ever will.

Give the makeup of our current roster and knowing Arte won't go over his budget......ever; I want no part of extending him.   We ALWAYS pay for past performance........pick a player.

Mike had to be done and I celebrated.  S.O. will be 30 at the time of his next 8+ year deal.   When are we going to learn!?!

I'm glad he was active and am fine with each trades respective return in that I can at least understand the idea of each.  That said, I just wish I understood the plan, or "vision," of this organization.  We can joke there isn't one, but that just can't be the case.  These guys (not just Perry, but those working with him) obviously spend hours mapping out a vision.  I just wish I could see it and trust that it comes to fruition.  I don't.

OMG, that is so bad!  Honestly, does he need glasses?  I'm serious.  That is just beyond comprehension from anyone who has ever played.

Will do. I lurk here multiple times daily, but am always a bit reluctant to post/create new stuff; a lot of regulars here I don't want to piss off!

Personally, I like the individual game days.  But I can adjust:-)

I checked a two hours ago and noticed the same.  Sad.

Thank you!

To reiterate what others have shared, Arte is the one constant throughout this past decade-plus of suckage.  He's a businessman running our team for profit.  His goals don't align with ours, as fans.  If this team will win, it will be in spite of him, not because of him.  He's not going over his payroll because savvy businessmen don't do that.

Next, I understand I am a homer as I write this.  But I honestly understand what Perry did going into the season and like many of our pieces.  This season has been a shit-show comprised of a few injuries and tremendous under-performance from far too many.  I'm not sure, given restraints as well as career-level expectations, what Perry was supposed to do about it.

I'll dig deeper on the position-end of things.

C- Stassi hasn't performed as expected.  He needs a platoon partner and Perry failed at providing it.

1B- Walsh underperformed.  Is he capable of regaining last year's stroke?  I think so.

2B/SS- I like some of our pieces and believe Perry did as well.  Would have been nice to see what a healthy Fletch could do (for no other reason than to determine what we have), LF is proving to be serviceable, Stefranic has earned a shot to show what he has.  

Note: going into the year, I thought our offense would be top 7 and could therefore understand Perry's approach to put a D-first SS to help out the pitching staff.  An infield defense of Rendon, Vaz, and Fletch would have been pretty good, imo.

3B- I think we all under-estimate the loss in value of not having the Rendon we signed show up.  Big money that has underperformed/injured.  If he's healthy and plays to his career norms, he changes is our offense in a big way and his d is stellar.  Again, I can understand Perry thinking he should get "typical Rendon" for 145 games going into the season.  The impact of that on our lineup would be immense.

CF- Mike has shown signs of injury/decline.  I remain hopeful/optimistic that the decline piece is in part due to him pressing to shoulder the load.  Even in his "down" year (for him), he's amazing.

RF- Ward has been great and rewarded Perry.

LF- Perry had to make space for Marsh and Adell to cut their teeth.  Without hindsight, I'm not sure many would disagree.  I know I am still anxious about what they can become.  It hasn't worked out, but not all is lost and I still see potential in both.

If one bad year does not define a career, I'm not of the opinion we need a drastic overhaul with our position players.  In fact, I think we need much better depth, players performing to their potential/career norms, and health.

Beatlesrule,

1.  Why do you stick with it?  It sounds like you've had enough to move on.

2.  I hope your anger is focused on Arte.  You appear to blame the whole organization over decisions that Arte makes.  It's not a secret that many upcoming GM's had little interest in working for Arte.  I hope that is where you are laying your blame as opposed to the organization as a whole.  Everything starts at the top in any organization.  I just hope that you aren't lumping it all together at a time when the focus of the issue is clear.

There is a reason why a club like the Dodgers wanted Ward and Rengifo.  

Ward's injury was super unfortunate given how he was playing.  Hasn't quite been the same since his return.  He was never going to keep that unrealistic pace, but let's cut him a little slack and be thankful he's contributing at such a fine rate.  The kid can play.

Rengifo, as others have noted, needs consistent playing time.  He's conquered every level and will do so at this one if given consistent ab's.  

I hope we place Fletch at SS and Rengifo at 2B the rest of the way.  Let's find out what we have with both.  

I don't mind an offensive hole at SS (Vaz) if they can defend.  That said, we aren't winning anything this year, so let's find out if Fletch can regain his form.  And no, not after 75 ab's that might cost us a game or two.  I'm talking let both (Rengifo) both roll the rest of the way and let's see what we have.  I'm optimistic we'll be rewarded.

I'm so sick of playing guys like Wade/Duffy that will have no bearing on our future.  Fuck it.  Let's find out what we've got with higher-ceiling guys so Perry can appropriately plan. 

Don't....