dprep80

Been a fan since 86.  95 still hurts the most. 

Can you point me to the verified, confirmed list of all of the players involved in the proposed trade, because I'd like to understand what a huge steal it was. Published reports from actual baseball reporters only please.

Just to clarify, we don't know for sure that the offer was the same and all the Angels had to do was wait and/or say yes?

The day Lyle Lovett married Julia Roberts everything changed.  Anything became viable or feasible from that point on.

Just to clarify, we don't know for sure that the offer was the same and all the Angels had to do was wait and/or say yes?

As TG implies, time to move on.   ST is here tomorrow!   As for Stripling, that ship sailed.    
Here's the mantra that Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Bundy, Teheran, Sandoval, et al will be having.   ICWT 

All of the information about this was that the dodgers no longer thought they needed the trade.  What does that mean.  The Angels chose not to renegotiate, as is justified. 
 
You guys are treated Ross Stripling like a completely essential piece.  Let’s have some perspective about who he is and what the Angels were giving up. 

I was on the “I would trade Jo for Clevinger” train for awhile but at this point, Clevinger doesn’t put us as WS contenders IMO. I’d rather see what we have with Adell and go from there. If Adell is the real deal; that makes Marsh and/or Adams that much more expendable for a frontline starter. A future lineup of Adell, Trout, Rendon, Ohtani is too good to pass up 

Every time I think about this, I get so depressed.

Clevinger is a favorite of mine to be sure. And if the cost was Jo Adell, and only Jo Adell, then sure I make that deal. I'd still have Brandon Marsh and Jordyn Adams in the system, and the Angels could really use Clevinger. 
But the Indians would be well served to ask quite a bit more. Just as an example, when Boston traded for a 28 year old 5 time all star in Chris Sale, they gave up Basabe, Diaz, Moncada and Kopech. Three out of four would appear on top prospect lists. Two out of four would become building blocks for the future of the White Sox franchise. One is well on his way to becoming a certified superstar. 
Now Clevinger does not have Sale's prior success. Or upside for that matter, but close. But he does come with one additional year of team control. The Indians would and could reasonably ask for a package about 1/2 to 3/4 of that strength and not be laughed at.
Adell, he's right there's in value with where Moncada was, and figures to be every bit as good as Moncada in the long run. One more prospect on par with Kopech would likely make this a reasonable fair price and return for the Indians. The problem is, the Angels don't have anyone that's on par with Kopech aside from Adell. Kopech was a first round pick, and ranked between 16-34 on the top prospect lists, was headed for AA and was the hardest thrower in all minor league baseball. 
So where does that leave the Angels? Needing to piece together a group for prospects and players from their staff of non-essentials that could equate Kopech in value. Not an easy task. Because you're trading Adell, you can't very well trade Marsh and Adams, or at least you shouldn't. The Angels could offer up what little they have in pitching, but the Indians pitching options exceed that of which the Angels could offer. The best they could do there is Patrick Sandoval. They could add in Luis Rengifo which also helps, but Cleveland will want some potential in the last trade piece to equate Kopech. I think this is where Cleveland would ask Jose Soriano, the Angels top pitching prospect. The Angels may counter with Hector Yan, but I think the happy medium here is Chris Rodriguez, who has been hurt (like Clevinger) and offers basically the same arsenal and delivery as Clevinger at this stage of the low minors. Getting Rod would be an absolute steal for the Indians and they wouldn't  say no.
So my question to Angels fans that know anything about prospects, would you be willing to trade Jo Adell, Patrick Sandoval, Luis Rengifo and Chris Rodriguez for Mike Clevinger?
Personally, no. I wouldn't. It's too much. The Angels system is too shallow in pitching to take that hit. 
Would Clevinger be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs? Yes. I believe he  would be. But in two years, Sandoval and Rodriguez will be dynamic weapons in the major leagues, Adell will be on the verge of superstardom and Rengifo will be a quality starting middle infielder.
But I think if you take away Rodriguez from the desk, and just made it Adell, Rengifo and Sandoval, I'd consider it. But I don't see that happening. As an interesting bit of behind the scenes history, Mike Trout himself saw videos of Adell on the internet and was in Eppler's ear about the kid. When your franchise player and the GOAT hand selects a prospect that he'd like to see the Angels draft, that carries some weight. It isn't Trout's decision obviously, but that clearly plays a role here.
 

La Stella’s value in a trade is minimal.  This is his last year of club control. 

I voted yes as I think the Angels with Clevinger and Marsh are better than the Angels with Adell and Marsh.  

There's really a lot to be said about this.
Also, Callaway could also boost Ohtani's game from the mound as well. Same with Heaney, Bundy & Teheran.

Assuming Angels don't do the trade now but Adell struggles mightily in his first cameo and Clevinger carries over what he did to close 2019 to 2020.  Would the Indians even do a 1 for 1 at that point?  Adell should be a beast without question - But this may be the only window to get an ace the level of Clevinger given the pre-MLB hype for Adell.
Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez were both just as touted as Adell and were traded for far less than Clevinger for what that's worth.
  

I also had a thought...Angels added Rendon pretty much unexpectedly and with him added a lot of offense we weren’t expecting out of current roster and were expecting with Adell.  Now that Angels have that in Rendon, the loss of Adell wouldn’t hurt quite as badly. 

For me, it boils down to this...what helps the angels win a title more, the next 3 years of Clevinger or the next 7 of Adell?
 
I’m torn, but the more I think about it, the more I think Clevinger will help more. 
 
This great class of Angels superstars is ready to win now. Clevinger is a win now player who fills the Angels greatest need today. Adell is a win soon-ish player, probably, but no guaranteed, who plays a position where the Angels have Marsh waiting in the wings. 
 
We have less clarity on where the angels will be in 3-5 years, and more clarity on the next two years. Clevinger should help more during that span. 
 
Imagine if the Angels don’t go all in during the next two years and don’t win, Trout and Rendon begin to decline, and then the MLB is locked out. A labor lockout isn’t a given, but it’s not far fetched either. Let’s win now while the stars are still stars. 

Totally agree.  I think people are overly discounting Clevinger bc he's not a household name and only has one 200 IP season so far.  His post-injury numbers last year were stupid good.  This skills are top 10 at worst. Add in the 3 more years of control and price that keeps Angels within luxury tax and you have the perfect fit for an ace.  He's arguably better than all but Cole and Degrom IF he puts together a full season.  I don't know how that doesn't cost at least Adell.
Plus trade value wise I can't imagine Adell's value could be any higher than right now.

I think Adell for Clevinger is a perfect trade in that I could see both the Angels and Indians saying no.
While it would hurt to move Adell, such a great home grown prospect, I would do it for Clevinger. 3 years of control of a likely top 5 SP in baseball is exactly what this team needs right now. Having Rendon in the lineup for the next 7 years and Marsh right behind Adell makes the decision easier. 
I understand why the Angels FO and the fans on the other side of would say no to the trade (I would be content if they didn't make the trade) but I think Clevinger would put the Angels over the top this year and the near future. 

I continue to have faith in Eppler as I have really appreciated his big-picture approach to running the organization.
For the life of me, I can't understand what those that are stating that we should have spent money on FA pitching so as to avoid having to trade our prospects for pitching are thinking.  While I wholeheartedly agree with the premise, as I believe Eppler would as well, given hindsight, what reliable plan are those of this mindsight thinking would have been viable?
Cole, Wheeler, Madbum, and Stras were never coming here.  Furthermore, given their contracts, many of us here would have passed on them anyway.
Ryu/Keuchel were available for some time.  While they were, multiple threads were posted on the negative effects to signing either of them.  Knowing what they received in compensation, are those that are arguing we should have spent on FA pitching essentially saying Eppler made a mistake by not offering them more than what they received?  If so, I would agree that signing them may have helped us improve this year's club and perhaps bought him a little more time.  But 2-3 years from now I believe the same people would be holding him accountable for signing either of those two pitchers to the very contract they would endorse now.  
So what SP FA did Eppler miss out on or make a mistake by not signing that would have put us in a better position this year and in the future?
Again, I appreciate Eppler's big-picture approach.  It just sucks that Mike has had to endure the rebuild.
 
 
 
 

Eppler is trying to win the most realistic way possible right now while building for a more balanced future.
Prioritizing Rendon over starting pitching tells you that Eppler thinks that great hitting and defense will win more games over the long haul than adding an elite starter.
Very pragmatic and realistic, given the makeup of the current roster. With a lineup that should be in the top third of the league in run production or better, why not accept reality as it is for the near future and try and win by outscoring the opposition? 
It also puts a lot of faith in the new manager and pitching coach to get more out of the current staff. 
There is decent potential for growth amongst some of the returning starters. Ohtani can potentially become a part time ace. And Bundy and Teheran add stability. They can even just pitch a little above average, eat up innings and make the staff better than it was. Not an unrealistic expectation. The strength is in the bullpen. Starters just keeping games close through six innings allows the pen more rest, and the hitters opportunity to break things open. 
  A 'good enough' rotation can work if the bullpen is solid and the offense produces consistently. Last season was about as bad as it can get for a starting rotation. For a number of reasons. Logic tells you they will be improved with the new additions, coaching and management. The string of injuries and bad luck also has to reverse itself at some point.
Embrace the realities of this roster and think positively. There won't be many low scoring pitchers duels or scoreless innings streaks. Just hope for the best when on defense and get excited when the team is at bat. 
Winning is about scoring at least one run more than the opposition. It doesn't matter how it is accomplished.

Without anyone looking it up, who was the AL 2018 Cy Young award winner and where did he place this year?
He was a 21 game winner with an era under 2. Would you spend $20 to 30 million a year to put that guy in your rotation on a long term contract based on his 2018 performance?
This is an example of drafting what you think is an ACE. When a team spends it's top picks in the draft it is gambling on a player they will get value out of for around 10 seasons between the minors and majors. It is based on an extremely small sample size of competitive play compared to the projected career. It is easy to pick the wrong guy. 
 

Agreed.
Their names were Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, and Zack Wheeler and all three were heading to the destinations that they ended up at pretty much no matter what unless we had completely thrown a crap-ton of money and overspent on them and that didn't happen and shouldn't have. The rest of the pitchers are ones we can get through other methods (trade) so, yes, it is disappointing particularly because we couldn't see the future and the reasons behind their decisions initially, but in hindsight the team pretty much did everything it could and we were just unlucky this off-season in the high-end starting pitching market.

The way I evaluate Eppler is pretty complicated, but I'll do my best to convey it without being too long winded. 
Major League Team: 60% 
(Winning Record, playoff appearances, extensions, acquisitions)
Minor League System: 30%
(Draft/Trading - 50%, International/Trading - 50%)
Payroll: 10%
Major League Team: D+. Simply put, Billy hasn't built a winner. He gets somewhat of a pass because he was in a soft rebuild the first couple seasons, but he's failed to solve their pitching woes for three consecutive years and with Teheran and Bundy, it's looking like it's going to four. His free agent acquisitions have been awful, though thankfully, only short term blunders. His trades have been good though. Simmons and Upton for very little. Pena, Buttrey and Sandoval too.
Minor League System: A-. Billy has been exceptional at rebuilding this system from nothing. The international presence is now formidable, and the Angels drafted extremely well with Thaiss, Marsh, Adell, Canning, Adams, Paris and Kochanowicz. But there's just no way around it, he's failed to draft or sign upside pitching. Getting Sandoval was great! But drafting Will Wilson when Jackson Rutledge was still looking the board, and Rutledge being everything this system needs right now is a pretty big failure. Right now it's Soriano, Rodriguez and Kochanowicz as projectable starters. That's it. 
Payroll: B. He's kept the payroll at a pretty even spot for his tenure, something we couldn't say the same for his predecessors. Then again, those guys actually won. Eppler hasn't. But much of the payroll limitations or lack thereof fall on the owner. Still Eppler has been garbage in free agency, but good in extensions.
Overall: C+/B-. 
Like any GM, he has his strengths and weaknesses. He flat out sucks at free agency. And his valuation of pitching is completely off. He doesn't sign them, doesn't draft them. It's infuriating. But he's probably one of the best, if not the best GM in baseball at developing a farm system and building a bullpen for cheap. Great communicator too.
If he didn't make it as a GM, he would as a farm director. But the Angels need more than a farm director in 2020 and beyond. It may be time to fire him. We'll see how they do in 2020. If they win 88+ games, I'd extend him. Anything less, fire him. 
 

I think the pitching market was less interesting and plentiful then a lot of us are claiming this offseason.  Only 3 guys would have really impacted the Angels long term.  1 of them re signed with his team and we lost out on the other 2.  I don’t really care to debate the reasons for that.  But it’s only 2 guys and we missed.  I think that Keuchel while helpful doesn’t really move the needle much particularly at that price and I think that Ryu while more of an impact guy just has so much risk associated with him that again, at 20 million a year for the next 4 years....I mean it’s not a great situation.   I get why they didn’t do those deals.  
 
I also am glad that Eppler isn’t flushing the farm system down the toilet for mid rotation guys or aging pitchers with significant injury risk.  Things change.  Guys become available.  The Angels will hopefully be quite a bit better this season.  If we get some improvement from guys and some health we can make some noise.  Eventually we’ll get a shot at a pitcher worth paying a price for. 

im not really sure that Eppler has really missed anything  worth being pissed about this offseason. 
 

Chuck by the time this is said and done I believe you will be happy with the finished product. That is all that I can say to you, there are good SP candidates out there. They are not Gerrit Cole/Stephen Strasburg elite but there are several solid #2-#3 types available and some with really interesting upside.
As some here have said let's get our offense even better and get our SP to a competitive level, keep our trade chips and move into the season. Get to the deadline and things could change too.