Mark PT

39 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I wanted to start this thread about our opinions of baseball today versus how maybe we viewed it 20-30 years ago.  

I started thinking about how pitchers are used today, where the manager for most pitchers ask the average pitcher to give the team about 5 innings.  Obviously there are stud pitchers out there that give their team close to 7 innings per outing, but that is the outlier and not the expectation.  So if you think back to 20 or 30 years ago pitchers were often getting into and out of trouble in their outings.  You would see a pitcher allow a couple of base runners in the 5th or 6th inning and then get out of the jam or even give up a run or two, get out of it and then come back out the next inning to pitch.  It certainly feels like that doesn't happen anymore.  Sure for a lot of teams you will see a pitcher in the first 3 or so innings give up a couple of runs and they get to continue to pitch.  But almost never does a pitcher give up a couple in the 5th and they are given the 6th to go get outs.  Maybe some of you disagree with this but it is just how I see the game.  So my question is this, 20 or 30 years ago when a pitcher got into trouble in the 5th or 6th innings were you pissed off that the manager didn't have someone warming up and clamoring to have the pitcher pulled?  I don't remember feeling that way.  I remember expecting the starter to go 7 innings.  Watching a game today it feels like I am EXPECTING a pitching warming up the minute a starter gets into trouble from the 4th inning on.  I am wondering if that has changed our perceptions of good outings or bad outings.  Has that changed our expectation as a fan of what we expect from managers or pitchers?  Does it make us blame the manager more than we once did?  Does it make us think a starting pitcher is worse than we once did?  I am not saying this just as Angel fans, but throughout baseball.  Curious what people think.  

I never thought or even think that it is a bad idea to have someone warming up. To be able to have the flexibility to bring someone in at a moments notice, so to speak, is good. But I definitely think that today's game lacks the excitement that you get watching a pitcher overcome adversity and battle. Plus some guys excel in these situations. The problem is that the current crop of pitchers have never been placed in this situation and may not be able to handle it.

Just now, Lou said:

That was his fastball.

Toward the end, yes. It was sad to see how he lost his fastball in what seemed overnight.

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

He has struggled since returning, lots of baserunners allowed (12 in 5 innings).

This guy could be great if he learns a change up. Get Weaver in here to teach that ridiculous change he had.

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

I know.....we have to live with them.

That doesn’t mean I have to like it.

This should be the slogan for the team! Someone write a song with this title and play it after the national anthem.

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Of course they would have made the rosters in the 80’s.  Watson before yesterday was a guy with a 3 ERA.  Cishek has a 4 ERA.  Look an any roster from the 80’s or the 70’s and they will have plenty of guys with ERAs in the low 4’s.  My guess is Alex Cobb has a FIP better than virtually anyone on the Angels pitching staff in the 70’s or 80’s.  

The problem, but check the stats is that these pitchers are taken out of game very quickly today whereas in prior decades, they were left in longer. So my guess is that a 4.00 ERA in today's game probably equates to a 5+ in past years. Plus, at least Angels pitchers, have obvious control issues and that seems to be systemic in this organization. Check the stats, it would be interesting to compare (I may be wrong) although I am not sure what stat would show this, maybe total innings pitched plus appearances.

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

I will go out on a limb and say 5 of those guys will pitch in the majors next year, and maybe all 6.  Watson, Cishek, Cobb, Bundy all definitely will. Quintana will at the very least get a minor league deal with an invite to spring training.  I think Slegers will get the same and that is if he doesn’t have another option remaining.  If he does then he will be back with us next year.  

For sure they will, I was not debating that. My point is that they should not be. And yes this is part over reaction but I do feel that none of these guys would make a roster in the 80s or prior.

15 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

Watson, Cishek, Schlegers, Quintana, Cobb, and Bundy.

Six pitchers I don't want to see next year.

I'll add, six pitchers that the majors should not see next year.

10 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I'll put this here and explain my reason Maddon is the reason the Bullpen is bad. 

My irritation with Maddon is the fact he does not or does not want to look at the strengths and weakness of his Bullpen. 

For Example Cishek, In Low Leverage situation, 18 Ip, Cishek has been really good. In medium to High leverage situations, Cishek (9ip) has been awful. Men on base, he has a whip of1.9, Era, FIp and Xfip close to 6. Base's empty, a whip of 1.07, FIp and Xfip of 1.77 and 3.08. Yet for some reason, Maddon does not look at  the stats and realize that  Cishek is better when pitching in a fresh ining, yet he brings him in with Runners on base. Once or twice it's fine, but it's a regular occurance with Maddon. 

So tuesday, with a runner on first, he should have never brought in Cishek! the right guy should have been Rodriguez at that moment! This isn't Cishek fault, it Maddon's fall for not judging Cishek's strengths, therefore this lose is on Maddon. 

 

Next situation, Today there was no reason to take Canning out at 69 pitches while only allowing  5 runner's on base through 5 innings. On the other side, Irvin was allowed to go pitch 5.2 innings while allowing 4 runs. But what ever, you bring in Watson, which i understand, but it was too early, I would have watson ready in the 7th inning. Making it worst he brings in Cishek with runner's on baseball....to anyone's suprise was a diaaster . Another game that we lost thanks to Maddon. 

We see the same bs by maddon throught out the season, and i can conclude that he's been responsible for atleast 7 lose to the season, just because he isn't willing to understand his pitcher's strengths and weakness. 

Yes, i know that our Bullpen is awful, but when used to a strength there are nice peices in the Bullpen. 

9th inning; Iglesias, easy and simple.

8th inning: Mayers, he's had 4 bad apearance that has inflated his era, with a small mechanic change he's looked good.  

7th inning: Suarez, he need a bigger role in the Bullpen. He's really important, and needs to be used more than once or twice a week! He's thrown over 17 Innings and has looked good! 

or, you place Suarez into key moment time of guy, and give the 7th inning to Watson. 

 6th: Cishek, put him in a lowe leverage spot with no one on base. 

 Gurrea put him as a mop guy, let him pitch in game's where we getting blownout. 

Claudi: another guy that has sucess in low levage situation. Pair him with Cishek, Gurrea..etc. 

 

So if a starter give's you 6 innings, you can go to your main weapons to end the game. 

if it's 5, than one of Cishek/Claudi depending on the matchup, then the big guns

Less than 4 inngs, we are probably getting blown out.

 

This has to be the way that Maddon need to  use his bullpen.

Even the A's have 3 guys that can be consider there main weapons, and these guys pitch in those specifc innings, while they also have guys with Era over or close to 5 and they pitch in Specific innings. 

 

If there are mistakes, I don't care this isn't an english class. 

All of what you say is true but the bottom line is, outside of Suarez, there is not one bullpen piece that can control where he throws the ball. They are just hard throwers and not one pitcher. The people scouting and making personnel decisions are hot garbage. 

1 hour ago, Angel Dog and Beer said:

this made the loss acceptable, thanks!

1 hour ago, Angels Fan Forever said:

88 MPH fastball is not going to cut it. Bundy was hitting 94 in April.

what does not cut it is every pitch being thrown down the middle. He is not a major league pitcher.

4 minutes ago, Revad said:

If the Angels make the playoffs (I haven’t given up) it would be a very good year.

If they get the pitching that they have over the past 10 games, it is possible.

5 minutes ago, Lhalo said:

The helpful Honda guy?

that's right. He did it after he counted to infinity, twice.

3 hours ago, Lhalo said:

The Helpful Honda guys just bought me a 6 pack of IPA's.

Chuck Norris kicked his butt.

29 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Minasian in tough spot, if they are at 500 or few games above at trade deadline. What to do with Heaney, Bundy, Cobb, Iglesias, and Watson? Trade or lose them,7 or more games back I think they get traded.

All of them for Pujols. Sorry, had to.

24 minutes ago, stormngt said:

As you guys keep blaming Arte for the last ten years, remember he is the guy who owned the team 2003-2009 as well.

Yes true but during that time he had a good pitching rotation that was already established from the previous regime. He has yet to build a good pitching rotation since being here. Is it his fault, I dont know. That was what I meant in the last comment.

32 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Billy Eppler getting fired might end up being one of the more powerful big dumb ass moves that Arte makes in his tenure as king of the Angels. 

the key phrase here is "one of the..."

16 hours ago, eligrba said:

If Minasian keeps up with this piss-poor performance, he will also have plenty of time to spend on his family vacation.

It is now hard to evaluate GMs from the Angels. They have had so many in the past 10 years and all suck or do they? Can all these guys be failures or is Arte the problem?

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

I can see how Athletics fans would be frustrated by their lack of a WS in a few decades, but on the other hand, at least they get to regularly experience the postseason.

 

That's true. And at least they have a descent chance of having good talent come into their system.

Just now, Angelsjunky said:

Why is it a joke? Maybe they just have good scouting? If they "always" do it, then it isn't luck, and part of being run well is scouting.

Not all prospects make it. Cant deny they must have great scouting. But to rid themselves of all their players that produce year in and out causes the results they have had. To make the playoffs as much as they have and have nothing to show for it (admit it is more then we have) is the result. The Angels suck because Arte does not believe in pitching, the A's win the division but cant make it past the division round.

My initial response is obviously out of frustration but it must also be frustrating to be an A's fan,

On 6/3/2021 at 3:20 PM, Angelsjunky said:

Really, though? You're saying that the As are a joke, but then admitting that they somehow make good trades and bring in good prospects, but then chalk it up to being a miracle. Come on, dude. Bad take.

The As contend most years, all while having a budget 1/3 to 1/2 of the Angels. I'd say they're one of the best-run orgs in baseball.

You misunderstand what I mean. Yes they are run well but their ability to always hit on prospects is a joke. That makes them lucky. But yes they are run well.

On 6/1/2021 at 12:04 AM, Dochalo said:

yah.  I was right about the one guy I was bearish on and have been getting my ass kicked on other like quintana.  I also thought Canning would start turning a corner and throwing more meaningful strikes ie improve his command and I'm really hoping that happens because I think his ceiling is still pretty high because of the quality of all four of his pitches.  He's just got to start throwing the ball where it needs to go more often.  And I was wholly wrong about Cobb.  And Jose Iglesias. 

I was touting Walsh since 2017. 
I was meh on Fletch until he got called up.   I still like him but I really hate if he's gonna be some contact guy.  He needs to walk 80 times a year and I think he's got that in him.  
I still think Taylor Ward is gonna have some good seasons for someone. 
I've had a man crush on Rodriguez since the draft. 
I didn't like the Jordyn Adams pick all that much.   Wished we got Gorman.  
Love me some Kyren Paris. 
Bearish on Jackson
Like Marsh but kinda think people need to slow their roll on him.  
Still like Adell but for two years from now.  
LIke Thaiss more than most.  Especially at C.   
I don't mind Heaney and think we should sign him to a three year deal.  Yah, I said that.  I think he's consistently inconsistent and sometimes that works.  
Thought our pen was gonna suck this year and would be our Achilles heel.  
Loved Nonie Williams for awhile.  
Had higher hope for Cole Duensing
Gave up on Brennon Lund but now think he can be a 4th/5th OFer 
Still like Aaron Hernandez, William Holmes and think people should remember the names Connor Van Scoyoc and Daniel Nunan from the 2018 draft.  
Hated the Will Wilson pick and hated even more that we gave up our first round pick to get rid of money.  Wanted Arte to eat his fucking brussel sprouts on that one.  
Like Rivera and Daniel
Really like our top three picks from 2020.  Especially Detmers and Blakely.  Calabrese some but not as much.  

There.  I'm on record and it's pretty much a mixed bag.  

And while I'm on a stream of consciousness red shoe diaries confession/rant, 

I'd tell Joe to stay in his lane with his f'n balloon animals and salmon croquettes and otherwise be a pretty boring on field manager and follow a very specific line
I'd tell Arte to piss off unless I need his money.  
For the rest of this year I'd put Ward in CF till Trout gets back and sit Rojas 
I'd only use Rodriguez out of the pen if it's in 3-4 inning stints and I'm getting him stretched out in the minors first.  And it's on a schedule.  Not as needed.  
I like Gosselin.  He's playing almost every day.  
And here's a news flash.  Just because Theo Eppstein said he made baseball boring, stop trying to force the game back to 1970 when we know that shit doesn't win as many games.  For now, stick with what gets you wins and let the establishment change things.  
You want to get really creative for the rest of the year?  Put Barria, Sandoval and Suarez in the rotation and tandem them with guys like Heaney and Bundy.  Yeah, that one's a little out there, but the point is to get the young guys consistent work.   Take care of the guys who you know are going to be here next year and let the others who probably want to fight for their next contract do so from the spot that might not be as comfortable for them because F them.  They're gone in a few months.  Bundy can follow Sandoval, or Barria or Suarez and force himself to get ready on short notice.  
And I'm not calling up Adell or Marsh yet.  They're not ready.  

And next year?

Here's a good one for y'all.  Since our SP is likely gonna be mediocre at best anyway, I'm sinking my entire budget into a kick ass bullpen.  Because you know there's gonna be a budget and you know that adding three to four guys at 1/8m is gonna be full on pull and pray.  So f it.  Lock down innings 6-9.  Bullpen arms aren't predictable you say?  What about 1yr deals for crappy starters?  How has that pool of hog shit treated us the last few years?  Predictability is all relative.  

And most all, someone needs to hire people that are better at their job.  And a lot of them.  Collect smart people.  No team has failed because they have too many smart people.  They fail because one person thinks they're smarter than everyone else.  No matter how much you think you know, others can help.  

So there you go.  The musings of a madman.  

 

Canning is, by far, the most disappointing pitcher they have. With that kind of stuff and to not be able to have major league control is a crime against humanity. I would hire Greg Maddox and force Canning to spend the entire offseason learning control.

17 hours ago, eligrba said:

In before Bundy wins the Cy Young playing for the A’s.

Ya, that organization is the largest joke in all of sports. How your main strategy is to develop player, then get rid of them for prospects is nothing short of self-destructive. Yet it seems to work every time. To be able to hit on as many prospects as they do is a miracle

On 6/1/2021 at 11:25 AM, totdprods said:

I really wanted the Angels to deal Bundy this past winter, to either the Dodgers, Padres, Indians, Twins, someone who would have maybe sent back a Top 100 SP prospect. Angels would have probably needed to kick in another piece - and maybe get some MLB depth back, relievers, catcher, etc., but it will be an opportunity I think they squandered. Thought it would be better to lose Bundy's 'proven' upside for one year in order to gain another good MLB-ready SP prospect for the long-term.

I could still see a team like the Dodgers or Giants having interest in Bundy, and Heaney will definitely have suitors as well.

Most well run organizations know Bundy sucks and would not give anything for him. It was probably worth more to just keep him and hope he reproduced something remotely close to last year.

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

Right, but he exhibited greatly improved command and control last year, thus the hope that he was taking a step forward. My concern last year was that it seemed he had paper-thin margins; meaning, as long as he had full command of his pitches and could throw them where he wanted to, he'd be really good. But I was worried that it was unsustainable and, so far at least, this season bears that out.

Ya, command is everything for this guy because none of his pitches are beyond average at best. HIs deception becomes useless without command. I personally would not bring him back as there is no room for error, as you mentioned.

10 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

That's probably true, but probably not enough to explain his utter plummet. Maybe he got a boner about his increased velo, then that dropped back to norm and he kept throwing the meatballs.

This is what he is. In a good year he is a .400 - .500 ERA guy. In a COVID-shortend season he posted a .329. Outside of this he has a below average fastball and suspect control of all pitches.