Mark PT

16 hours ago, Duren, Duren said:

It's gotten to the point that you are forced to watch for individual players progress rather than worry about results as a team. It seems the pitching is so fragile, and injuries so debilitating that they never will go on winning streaks that bring them much higher in the standings. 

Watching Ohtani's historic season, Walsh's maturation, Fletcher pounding out hits are the high points. Observing the younger players and projecting into the future is also important. Especially on the pitching side. 

There will be some new faces also that will or will not be part of the future.

The other thing will be if the lineup is filled with all the injured players back. But by then it may be hopeless to come close to contention. But possibly a sneak preview of what could ideally happen in 2022. 

 

Pitching aside, this lineup, when healthy, is among the best in baseball and very exciting to watch. Even with the injuries, it is still a good lineup to watch. As far as winning, baseball has and always will be a pitchers sport. It just sucks it took 10 years for this Angels team to figure that out.

5 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

While I want the Angels to win every game, I'm at a point that now where I'm watching exclusively for player performances in the way of entertainment value. 

Ohtani alone is worth watching an entire baseball game based on what he's doing. 

Fletcher's recent hit streak and performances. 

Let the kids play! Suarez, Sandoval & Marsh. Hoping to see Detmers and a better Canning later on this season. 

Trade stock. Hoping Cobb, both Iglesias' and Heaney continue to play really well in hopes of boosting their trade stock to bring back a healthy return. 

Lastly, hope. While it doesn't look good in the standings in terms of being 6+ games out of the Wild Card with several teams ahead of them for the second WC spot, I feel like there's a good run left in this team once Trout, Rendon and Upton come back. 

 

Its funny you say this. This is what being an Angel fan is. Most years we hope the season isn't over before summer hits.

8 hours ago, Torridd said:

Is it me or every time this guy comes in the game he gives up runs? Yet his ERA looks good. I don't get it.

This is the manager manipulating the stats. He takes him out quickly and minimizes damage. Still cant put him in any tight situations.

4 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I know he can't say it publicly, but let's take stock:

10 GB first. 6.5 GB the second wildcard, with five teams ahead of them. Add in an inability to hold their own against winning teams, and....time to sell.

I don't expect him to make any moves for another week or so, and perhaps not even until the deadline (10 days from now), but I certainly hope he's having talks and leaning towards selling.

Again, both Raisel and Cobb could net the Angels some good prospects, even 50-55 FV types (if he's savvy, he could possibly bring in a 60 FV type for Raisel; Marsh is a 60 FV type). 

There's a big drop-off in trade value after those two, but Heaney and Iglesias, Gosselin, Ward, and even Watson and Cishek, could all bring in something. Who knows, if Upton comes back strong, maybe Perry can pull off a last-minute trade to a team wanting a bat.

I don't see him getting anything of value for Bundy, Quintana, Suzuki, Eaton, Lagares, Slegers, etc. 

 

I guess the only obstacle to your assessment is what are the possibility of improving the staff next year (open question). If its a good prospect, then I'd keep Cobb and Sandoval. Anything beyond this is fair game (my opinion). If there is no hope to improve much next year, then sell.

17 hours ago, WicketMaiden said:

I'm not talking about the mega trades here and the obvious wishes like Shohei's 60 bombs and a WS berth, but more things the Angels can do internally to improve, roster moves and such like. I'd like to see these:

Thaiss called up and given a chance at back-up catcher - I mean Suzuki has been so bad, what is there to lose?

Ward given more time to settle into RF/LF to see if he can make himself a 4OF option next year and take pressure off Marsh’s development. If he can prove himself as a major league hitter he will be a nice back-up or trade piece.

Rengifo given a month settled at SS to see if he can make himself an option for next year at SS or as a 4IF who can hit - yes, I know he’s been rubbish and a lot of you won’t agree, but I believe in giving young players an extended look in their best position to give them time to properly settle (see Ward above). If he can hit anywhere near like he has in AAA recently he could be enough to keep Arte out of the SS free-agent sweepstakes this year, and that means more $$$ for pitching. If he doesn't, back to AAA he goes and we're in that sweepstakes or moving Fletch and buying in a 2B.

Marsh called up (and perform better than Adell did). Not expecting miracles, just competence would be nice.

C.Rod to come back up stretched out as a starter with a more varied pitch mix.

Detmers to get a cup of coffee in the pen.

Six fairly simple things that would really help us understand what we will need for next year. Oh yeah, I want to see some good baseball in the second half too.

17 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

Wins.

you win

On 7/11/2021 at 6:41 PM, mmc said:

Well I liked this pick but considering all the draft aficionados in here say it’s the worst move we’ve ever made I guess I should start drinking again 

stopping was your mistake.

On 7/11/2021 at 5:10 PM, PattyD22 said:

One spot ahead of Kumar Rocker.

Didnt they pick like 10 pitchers? Maybe this was the best available knowing who else they were targeting.

19 minutes ago, DCAngelsFan said:

He's a cornerstone kind of guy - unless we see a drop-off coming - and I've seen nothing to suggest he's a flash-in-the-pan - you keep him, and find some other way to get an ace.  

I'll take that ~4 fWAR he's gonna put up this year all day long ...

dont think he is a flash in the pan either. He does not often have a bad at-bat.

9 hours ago, robblin17 said:

The guy shows up everyday and just gets shit done. No non sense attitude and knows how to own the moment. 
 

The guy is slashing .279/.338/.552. 135 OPS+. 
 

Beast. 

And the bat flip is second worldly.

On 7/2/2021 at 4:13 PM, Angelsjunky said:

Vote and discuss. 

What, no Bundy?

On 7/5/2021 at 11:47 AM, Revad said:

I predict we’ll be tempted to sell- I want to win but that’s what should be done, and in the end it will be sell and buy (a controllable piece).  Or sell and move the farm up a notch.  I think if we sell we’ll be looking at some changes in the prospect list.  It could be a nice three or four additions to the top 30, maybe a change to the top ten.

Would hate to see a sell. A couple good consistent arms has us competing for the WC easily.

43 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

If by criticized you mean I pointed out you seemed to be talking out both sides of your mouth then sure.  But when faced with such "criticism" you felt the need to clarify what you meant, then you attempted to justify your reasoning.  So you tell me if you yourself felt the need to make clear what you meant am I at fault for taking what you had said and responding to it?  Was I supposed to know when you claimed "He needs to learn a changeup" or that he "can't throw it for strikes", that what you reeeeeeally meant was "I know he has a change-up, and I know the pitch isn't supposed to be thrown for a strike, but what I really mean is that he needs to get better with his other off-speed pitches"   Tell me more about unreal.

The projection comment is 100% aimed at your idiotic talk about ego and someone being insulted.  Pointing out facts doesn't impact my ego in the least.  At no point during this back and forth have I felt the need to clarify or justify my position so there's been ZERO reason for me to take insult at anything.  

I'm not the one bent out of shape here or changing his story constantly to cling to my opinions. 

Later

So basically I was poor at explaining my position and you misunderstood my meaning. Fine. My ego comment referred that by quoting so many stats seemed going above and beyond the scope of reason to prove someone wrong, when all it would have taken was, " I disagree". I was not bothered by it, it just seemed that you were hell bent to prove a position and I was just conversing. I this was not your point then I apologize, but that's what it seemed like. 

As far as CR, I still think he has tremendous room for growth but yes learning a change was meant to mean control it (change/off-speed). That was my point.

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

@Mark PT

If you want a deeper look at someone explaining the 20-80 scale, this is one of the better pieces on it.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/scouting-explained-the-20-80-scouting-scale/

They try to put numbers to the grades and the sort...   

It's also very common to see scouts break the rating down for any one particular skill set as 45/60, when you see that what they are trying to do is give you an idea of where the player current is and where he could end up.

There is no hard and fast model and youll see plenty of variance from site to site and scout to scout but it's a decent baseline for conversation.

Ya, I never heard of this before but it is understandable now. Thanks.

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Hilarious.  

My ego?  Insulted? Lol...  Your projection defense mechanism is your issue, not mine.  

Look, you not having a clue what you were talking about doesn't impact me in any way shape or form, but when you continue to try to argue your position when none of the facts support it, I'll do exactly what I did...  point out the facts as they are readily available for anyone looking for real information to see for themselves.  It's a public forum, not a private two way conversation and while you'd love to make this about you and I, I'm talking about Chris Rodriguez and what he can and cannot do.  Unlike yourself, I'm not so caught up in my own BS and opinion that when faced with facts I bury my head in the sand only to re-emerge later with a new spin on a bad take.  

Again, physician heal thyself -- at the very least, take your own advice and take a deep breath -- it's just baseball.

Not sure if this was meant to be funny, or you really don't know but scouts grades tend to run from 20-80.   80s are almost unheard of, 70s are guys like Vladi Jr for hitters.  I can't remember the last legit 80 grade pitcher but guys like Syndergaard came close with his FB.

You truly are unreal. You criticized me. I just stated an opinion. Projection? really? I just said that He was unable to hit his spots with his pitches. You corrected me by showing he has rarely thrown his change up, which I acknowledged and redefined my position to say off-speed. This is not a defense mech but just a conversation. The stats you present still do not change my point because they cant. Piping a pitch does not prove he has control of his pitches. He misses his spots then gets too much of the zone and gets hurt. That is all I said

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

No it is a 20-80 scale

Thanks. That makes more sense

11 hours ago, ScottT said:

Damn those people trying be good at their jobs!

Its not really a criticism but more of an observation. Its one way of doing things that, in my opinion, may not always work. I think as long as a manager is consistent in how they approach in-game decisions then they are doing their job to the best of their ability. Plus the owner/GM can better evaluate what they want. When Dodger fan ripped D. Roberts 2 years ago for removing pitchers early in playoff games, I told them that this is his method and he's consistent. I just think that leaving a pitcher in sometimes to overcome might be more efficient, but that is just opinion.

4 hours ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I guess people need to know a little bit of a report on Rodriguez;

He throws four pitches

1. Sinker/Fastball (65 grade pitch)

2. Curve-ball (65 grade pitch with the upside of a 70 grade pitch))

3. Slider (60 grade pitch)

4. Change (60 grade, with the upside to be a 70 grade pitch)

He has four-plus to even plus pitches, His command/control his solid where he can starter. As a Bp Arm he's has only thrown two Main pitches, the Sinker/fastball and curve. Once he moves in the Rotation, you see better results on his other pitches as he will throw them more. 

What do you mean by grade pitches? Is that out of 100?

21 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Asks me if it was that important to prove him wrong.  Continues to argue he's not by redefining all previous statements to try to save face after he's shown to be talking out both sides of his mouth and out his posterior.  But its important to me, right? Physician heal thyself.   

I'm glad he's in AA and will get to develop.  

Brother I dont need to save face, but if it boosts your ego, fine. I clarified my points. But you still seemed to take issue with everything I said. Take a breather, its just baseball talk. If you proved me wrong about CR, cool. But I redefined my points to see if you could, which is good as I will learn something. But you being insulted by what I have said, which you obviously are, is a joke. 

42 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

This is you talking about his change up.   In this post "he needs to learn one."   It's actually been his best pitch throughout his career so, this statement makes it seem you're unaware of his repertoire or rather, unfamiliar with his strengths and weaknesses.

This is you after several people mentioned it's actually his best pitch arguing he can't control it, and they he's constantly piping the pitch -- I'm guessing the assumption is that he's throwing a meatball when he does??   But let's move on.

This is you arguing he lacks control and that may be why he isn't throwing it...  but he's piping them remember.  Also, you seem to think a 22 year old rookie that had not pitched above A ball prior to this season has the carte blanche to decide his game-plan.

This is you double or tripling down on the lack of control of his best pitch.

This is you, after making several references to his not having control of the pitch now saying you know it's not meant to be a strike ... 
 
This is me trying to follow along.   You're all over the place.   

I'm going to try to make clear what my point was when I first responded...  But first -- a study of Chris Rodriguez and pitch selection post IL stint.

First game back.

22 pitches, 1 change-up.   Called ball.

Second game back...

16 pitches, 1 change up -- it was swung on and fouled off.

Third game back

15 pitches, 0 change ups.

Fourth game back

14 pitches, 0 change ups.

Final game before demotion

21 pitches, 1 change up.   Ball.

So... Since coming back.   88 pitches thrown, 3 change ups.  THREE.  Only one of which was swung on and it was fouled off. 

3.4% of his pitches have been change-ups... ZERO of them hurt him.   

So my point... 

He doesn't need to learn one. He's not having trouble with it.  He's not piping it when he does throw it.  The problem is he's NOT been throwing his best pitch and their usage of him isn't allowing him to actually USE or DEVELOP it, because you don't throw a pitch that drops like a 12/6 curve but tends to not be a strike when you're missing with your sinker and curveball.  Maybe you have been mistaking his change for his curve because of the movement -- but the facts simply don't support your POV.

I think the more important thing is you see the potential, and believe he simply needs to tap into it -- so, we agree there... but our logic getting there is based on very different views of the the same problem.   Hopefully now that he's in AA, he will start throwing those other pitches, learn how to set guys up more.  I'd almost wish they would find a veteran minor league game caller to pair with him and Detmers in AA because that kid's stuff has also been playing up.

Anyway...  There was a lot of interesting insight coming from Gubi his last game out; he talked up his slider, and his change, specifically his change.  He's obviously seen him throwing it in bullpen sessions or on the side, he's aware of what a wipeout pitch it is and if anything it sounded like was lamenting the fact that he wasn't being used in a way where he could.  It's a ridiculously good pitch.

CRod's change is vicious because of it's movement, not because of a change in velocity is the plane it's thrown at.  Thing is, it's a pitch that he needs to throw, and he's not been doing that pitching once every four days for 1 inning at a time and even less so when he's been failing to throw strikes with his sinker and curve.

 

That's going the distance to try to prove someone wrong, was it that important? Look I realize that by change up, I should have said off-speed. Either way he lacks control of his pitches (and strike total out of total pitches thrown wont show you what I mean). He misses his spots. He tries to hit corners and misses. He is forced to come over the middle. HIs change was only thrown 3 times (per your research), if this is his best pitch, why is he only throwing it 3 times. Look, I really think this kid has tools and potential to be Ace-like but he cant control his pitches well enough currently.

By learn one, that does not mean he cant throw it or make it move, it means he cant throw it effectively in the zone. With this in mind, now the "he's piping them" in light of he cant control it makes sense. I like the insight from Gubicza that you mentioned, and it is a testament to how good he can be. He has at least three "wipeout pitches" that I have seen but cant use them in too many occasions. 

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

He never uses it because of the role he's in.  You're also making a mistake believing that the pitch is meant to be a strike.  The bottom drops out of it and people miss it, that's how he's used it.   The fact that he hasn't been throwing it/developing it has been a continuous source of scorn/lament for those of us that have followed him.

Good talk.

Oh I get it, that its not meant to be a strike but this also gets him into trouble when he falls behind guys. He then tends to come straight over the middle and gets hurt. He still has not been able to figure out how to effectively use his ability, cause he does have alot of it. If he consistently pitches in the zone, I think he will not be forced to the middle so often. HE has tremendous potential but has not reached it yet, hopefully he does.

1 hour ago, itsKnoppUitsme said:

Except for that one damn time in 86, i’m still pissed about that! 

So what possessed you to bring that up? No my day is ruined.

21 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Lol.... His changeup is considered by most evaluators to be his best pitch.

and yet he never uses it or shows any control while using it.

21 hours ago, rafibomb said:

Looking at Rodriguez's pitch distribution this season kinda bummed me out: 64% fastball, 27% slider, 5% changeup, 3% slider

Rodriguez has potentially 4 plus-pitches in his arsenal but was pigeon-holed into a two-pitch reliever in the bullpen. Thankfully, now he can get work in for all 4 of his pitches as a starter in for Rocket City.

and this was my point. He tries to overpower everyone. And this also may illustrate his lack of control with his change up.

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I agree with everything you wrote.  I remember the multi inning save, but just barely do I remember guys like Gossage getting 3 inning saves, to me that is pushing my memory as a fan.  For me what I was getting at is as the game evolves has it changed how we as fans view it?  I know for a fact that if Mike Witt got in trouble in the 5th inning I wasn't pissed at Mauch for not having a guy ready in the pen.  Also if he gave up 3 in the 5th inning and finished the inning, I am sure I would have expected him to come out for the 6th inning.  Could you see any scenario (minus a possible blow out) where that happens today?  

I think what you said is valid. Mauch did leave guys in too long. I think this is just manager skill, to know what your pitchers can do and what they cant. This is the problem or weakness that many managers have in today's game, they stick to a pattern and dont evaluate each situation and the personnel involved before making a decision. They stick to their matrix and forget about the human element.

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

The change up is Rodriguez best pitch.  

but he cant control it, that is what I mean. He consistently falls behind every count then pipes one.