AngelsFanSince86

40 minutes ago, jessecrall said:

You look for redundancies. Do we need Adell AND Marsh? Not with Upton and Trout already locked in. Do we need Rengifo AND Jahmai Jones? Nice to have insurance but no. If you sign a legit starter this offseason, can you afford to give up either Canning or Suarez? Sure. Ideally, you hold on to the one with the most upside and let other teams bet on growth. Here's hoping it rolls that way. But it does this team no good to have Rengifo on the bench and Marsh tearing it up in AAA in 2020 while one of their positions on the field is a black hole.

Yes actually we do.  Theoretically you trade from an area of strength, but you only do it when making that trade makes your already complete team that much stronger.  You can't guarantee which prospects will pan out.  What if Adell is actually somewhat of a flop/solid 4th OFer type, but we traded Marsh away only to have him turn out to be the solid everyday player?  Regarding Suarez and Canning:  what in the past several years of Angels baseball has lead you to believe that one farm pitcher is enough depth for this team?  Seriously?..."Second Base" pointed out a few other things as well.  Angels do not have enough depth yet.  Honestly, I was all down for Angels trading for some of these names that have been floating around, but the more I hear arguments against it the more I realize that is just me wanting something to be excited about and being impatient.  Angels need to hold steady and only use prospects in circumstances like the Simmons trade.  That made sense because of the years and money on Simmons contract.  If Eppler can pull off another one of those I'm all for it.  Otherwise, lets wait until the team can compete on its own and then make the big splash FA/trades to solidify the team as one of the best.

27 minutes ago, floplag said:

Noone wants to trade anyone cause we need them.
Noone wants to sign anyone, cause they are too expensive and we cant afford it within our artificial budget, why bother anyway as the roster isnt good enough.
Whats it matter anyway when people are happy with 500 baseball as long as they get to watch Trout before he leaves.
What else is there to say, shut the forum down and well see everyone in ST 21.

Thats not true.  You are just impatient.  You can't ignore that this team has many holes and then jump the gun to upgrade one of them.  Happy with .500 baseball?  You think everyone advocating to hold steady with our prospects is actually happy with .500 baseball?  Your attitude is in line with Dipoto.  He wanted to win now.  So he traded all prospects away when he could to upgrade the ML roster, signed Albert freakin Pujols, signed Josh freakin Hamilton, traded for Grienke.  What did that get the Angels?  One post season appearance and zero post season wins.  And it got us here.  It left us having to be patient with .500 ball while the farm develops and our (finally) competent GM plays the long game so that we can one day watch the Angels prosper for many years.  

Personally I struggle with this because I get excited at the thought of trading for guys like Kluber and Realmuto.  But you can't honestly assess that and think that is a good thing for the team.  You can't honestly say that the Angels are a catcher or starting pitcher away from being on the Astros level.  Thats the kind of move you make to finally one up the Astros, but the Angels aren't even close right now.  The Astros have utility/bench guys who are more productive than some of the Angels starters.  That is because they let their farm develop.    Trading for Verlander when you are already in first place is completely different than trading for Kluber when you just finished in fourth.

2 hours ago, failos said:

The manager is Albert Pujols

If it meant Pujols would retire from playing baseball I would be all for it. Pujols not taking up a roster spot may just improve the team more than any managerial move ever could.

On 9/30/2018 at 1:18 PM, Scotty@AW said:

The point is, don't package Griffin Canning in a trade in which he'll be better than the trade target in a year.  This kid has a shot at being an ace, and is more than likely a good #2/3 starter.  Now if you want to aim high and shoot for DeGrom then go ahead, just know that you're sacrificing 6 years of a #2 for 1.5 of a #1.  Not worth it in the Angels currently situation. 

And if Canning somehow struggles in his first taste of major league action, it doesn't eliminate his trade value.  That's like saying Trout's trade value was eliminated the first time he saw major league caliber pitching and sucked. 

Yeah I know what you are saying.  But what you said in your original post was basically, "let him pitch in the majors.  If they like what they see then keep him, but if they don't then he can maybe be used as a trade piece".

Do you really think in the scenario where they decide to trade him (which would inevitably be because they are not impressed enough with what they see) that his trade value will be what it was before?  Like somehow a team trading for him wouldn't have the tape on him to evaluate him?  There is always value in the unknown and if you are going to trade him it should be before he hits the bigs.  However, I also agree that it is only worth it to get a #1 and to me its only worth it if they are signed through 2021.  Obviously it would take more than Canning, but its worth it for the right guy in my opinion because prospects are unproven.  

Then again, if Trout signs an extension it changes my outlook.  To me its all about competing while Trout is here.  If he signs an extension I prefer to let the guys in the farm develop while continuing to build depth and if we get to the point where an ace is literally the one piece they are missing that is when they do what they have to.

13 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

Promote Griffin Canning and watch him handle major league hitters, then decide whether or not you want to trade him for another pitcher. I'm thinking the answer will be no.

Well that kind of misses the point though right?  I'm sure they have their own evaluations of how well they expect him to perform at the major league level.  Obviously nobody can know for certain.  You can't test him out in the majors.  If he doesn't do well then you have eliminated most of his trade value.  You either stick with him or you trade him while he is still a prospect and his "potential" and therefore value is at its highest.  

I would have no problem with them trading Canning if he was added to a package to get a proven ace with at least 3 years of club control/contract left.  However, I would not be ok if Adell was in that package.

4 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Machado wants to play SS, so not only do you need to match other teams offers. You need to convince him to play 3B again.

Just thought I would put this here:

https://dodgerblue.com/mlb-free-agency-rumors-dodgers-manny-machado-willing-transition-third-base-for-right-team/2018/09/17/

Apparently Machado is willing to make the move back to 3B...according to sources...

8 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

FWIW, I know for a fact Eppler mentioned it to Ohtani when courting him. 

Well that would support the notion that it was done at least in part to lure LHH.

I always assumed they were doing it for long term reasons.  I doubt they expected it to have an immediate positive effect.  I figured it was to help entice left handed hitters to play here and once that happens the results should even out.  It was never going to benefit the Angels more than opposing teams immediately given the fact they are a heavily RHH team.

At the end of the day, even if they had a fair amount of LHH, it is going to be about 50-50 at best.  That is why I figured the reasoning behind it was more long term (fans get to see more HRs, LHH may be a little more easily persuaded to sign here, etc.)

Yeah I thought the perfect scenario if they signed Harper would be to move Upton to 1B. I think they are much better off keeping Calhoun. I don't like the idea of moving Calhoun to another team because he's one of the best players on the Angels so the value of adding Harper would be minimized. That's why ultimately adding machado would be better if we had the opportunity to sign one of them. However, if Upton could move to 1B it may add even more value just by removing his atrocious defense from the outfield.

4 hours ago, MrClutch said:

So, instead of ad-hominem attacks from you guys, where are the well put-together thoughts and arguments?  I can tell who are fans of Scioscia based on how you argue because you argue like he manages - on instinct and emotion instead of coming from a place of facts.

Again, blame Dipoto all you want for the Hamilton, Wilson, and Pujols signings, but every single baseball reporter and insider will tell you that Arte Moreno sank us with his direct pursuits and negotiations with the three.

Eppler runs the show in Anaheim and for it to be a peaceful existence, I expect them to hire Johnson.  He's a company guy.  He's done his time.  As I said, Chavez is the "sexier" hire, but why would I want to hire him as manager?

Guess it takes a GM that actually knows what they are doing to grab the reins.  None of us actually know what happened.  All we know is that Moreno does in fact rely on his GM to make the ultimate decision (strange how Dipoto was the only GM under Moreno who seemed to have this problem and now Eppler "runs the show").  So despite how you may feel about this, ultimately Dipoto agreed or it wouldn't have happened.  We also know Dipoto is directly responsible for 2 of the worst farm systems of all time.  We also know Dipoto is responsible for Baldoquin and the subsequent inability to sign Vlad Jr. who would have, with almost 100% certainty, signed with the Angels if given the chance.  We also know he quit.  Make whatever excuses you want, but a quitter is a quitter is a quitter. Quitting is not being run out.  Its running away like a petulant child.

Edit:  For what its worth, I am waiting patiently for the day Scioscia is gone.  I don't know who should replace him, but I trust that Eppler will make the right choice.  I do think they need a change of culture, but I don't think Scioscia is to blame for Dipoto's (many) shortcomings.

42 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

MadBum is the ultimate big game pitcher in the post-season.   The only concern is that he's only started 32 games out of a max of about 60 games since 2017.   Did his six straight 200+ innings seasons have an affect on his pitching health the past two seasons?    He is only 29 to start the 2019 season.  

Does the former mean that he might be had for a smaller trade package than he would have been two years ago?   Kind of like Vlad being signed for less after 2003, because of the back issues in 2003? 

He is a rental of sorts for 2019, as the Giants have a $12 million option on him for 2019 before he becomes a FA after that.   That and his recent pitching health makes me a little bit leery.

His pitch load makes me uneasy although he seems the type to be durable.  All of his injuries have been due to accidents.  He was in a dirt bike accident in 2017 and then fractured his hand on a comebacker during spring training this year.  So there aren't really any red flags as far as pitching related injury history.

4 hours ago, thebloob said:

Once again,  ridiculous that Ohtani is giving up at bats to Pujols.  The season is over, the games mean very little except for draft status.  I don't care if Pujols has to sit and Marte plays.  They need to get Ohtani in there versus lefties.  How is he supposed to work on it if they never play him against lefties?

Yeah I read that quote and was left scratching my head. How exactly does he get the experience if they don't let him get the experience? It's mind boggling. I was at the game Friday night and saw multiple people flash their Japanese passport. Clearly there for Ohtani, but of course he was sitting.  They have an opportunity to give Ohtani experience while also pleasing a sector of fans previously uninterested in the Angels and they are blowing it.

Edit: meant to include "to buy a beer" when saying I saw some individuals flash their passport. 

Jason Heyward

Well it always depends. Pujols' contract was/is ridiculous. There are various levels of overpay. Giving an extra year or a couple million more a year then what the market suggests to a player who has been valuable to your team, still has value left, and will be a valuable asset to the team from a leadership and marketing standpoint makes sense to me. As bad as Pujols contract is, I would feel a lot better about it if he had come up with the Angels.  Doesn't mean I would think it was a good move. Cards had offered him like 5/125. I think I would have offered up to 6/180 and felt comfortable with it as a Cardinals fan. 

Trout I would offer a 10/350 extension going to age 38 season.  The value he has already given this team on the field and also from a marketing standpoint makes this more valuable than it would to any other team. What he would mean to the franchise history to play out his career here is incredibly valuable.

Torii was a different story though. He was never going to require a contract that would hamstring the franchise for years.

14 minutes ago, Barrett said:

You never overpay for something someone did in the past especially in sports. It's nothing personal it's business. When people pay for things they do in the past you get contracts like Pujols and ARod at the end knowing full well at the end of that contract there is no way they could live up to it. 

Yeah but it's a bit different when you are paying them for things they did in the past for your team. In essence you are paying them for the production they have given you. Plus Torii didn't get that much. They just low balled him when they should have just given him fair market value. But they wanted Hamilton. That move pissed me off from the start. I had disliked Hamilton as a person long before the Angels signed him and Torii was one of my favorite players. 

I'd say he'll hit an average of 40/year until age 33 (including this year).  Sometimes more, sometimes less. That would put him at about 520. If he's healthy he could average 25 until he's 38 or so. That would be another 125 and would put him at 645. It's possible he'd do more in his later years and also likely he'll deal with some sort of injury at some point so I'll go with around 600, but go for the over.

13 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

And how many of the six specific players you mention will ultimately be major league regulars?

I saw maybe one.  Two will be bench players and the other three won't make it.

That's my opinion from that group anyway.

 

Right, that was more in response to another poster. Slegnaac was saying that if they bring up Ward, Thaiss, Rengifo then they have to do something with Valbuena, Marte, Kinsler. And he said what do if the new guys don't produce or get injured. What I was saying is that for the remainder of this year there are other options. Kinsler would probably get you a reasonable return on the trade market because of his defense and the fact he's posted a .750 OPS in his last 50 games. Then you just release Marte and Valbuena and roll with the other guys I mentioned. 

You're right, JMF, Fontana, and Cowart probably won't give you anything, but their production will likely equal or better Valbuena/Marte. It's Ward, Thaiss, and Rengifo that you want to see. If just one of them breaks out wouldn't it be worth it to do all that to find out? Heck, if they all fail it would be worth it to find out.

34 minutes ago, Slegnaac said:

Bringing "The kids" up is going to require making a space on the 25 man roster.  It is easy to say DFA Marte, Valbuena, Kinsler, etc., but once those guys are gone you may not have a chance to get them back.  If the Kids fail or get injured who do they turn to?  Also who fills these open spots at SLC?

I don't expect to see any Kids before September 1st when they can be added to the 25 man roster.

They still have Cowart, JMF, and Fontana in addition to the guys that we'd like to see given a real shot: Ward, Rengifo, and Thaiss.

The point is that Marte and Valbuena, and Kinsler (to a much lesser extent because of his glove) have all failed.  They can't really do that much worse than those guys.  And the point is to give them time.  What do you consider failing?  Like I've stated, Kyle Tucker is failing and today will be his 14th game in a row hitting .160.  You have to give these guys consistent playing time to see if they can overcome it.  Mike Trout basically failed in his first taste of MLB (40 games).

You are probably right, but that's what is sad.  Why does it matter if they fail?  Shouldn't we have that happen in a lost season?

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Machado 10/$300, with player opt out at age 30. . .or whatever it takes.

There is enough money coming off to afford that, and they just need him.

The guy is 26.

Then there is very little pressure to get much from Fletcher/Ward/Thaiss/Hermosillo. . .

And then you have enough prospects to trade for a frontline starter.

Now how does 2019 look?

Or we can all say Hamilton and Pujols were mistakes and be gun shy and just sit tight through how many more .500 seasons and then watch Trout leave.

Did I mention Machado is 26?

 

 

Yeah that is all predicated on him being willing to play 3B.  Who knows, maybe after a full season of being below average defensively he will realize he is an overall more valuable player at 3B and the chance to play next to Simmons will entice him.  Machado would definitely be #1 on my wish list.  But we still need production from these young guys for depth reasons.  Plus regardless of how hard they go at Machado there is no guarantee the Angels could sign him for a variety of reasons (location, underperforming team, desire to play SS, etc.).  If he signs elsewhere there has to be a backup plan.  

Or we can just keep trotting out Valbuena, Marte, etc.   Then this offseason if/when we fail to sign Machado we can instead go with Moustakas at 3B or Dozier at 2B and stick Cozart at the other position.  Then when those guys fail to live up to whatever expectations they are given they will continue to be trotted out because they are getting paid 10-15 million a year and the cycle of mediocrity will continue.  

It would be great to sign Machado, sign Pollock, trade Calhoun for RP, SP, or infield depth, sign Kimbrel, and add a couple more solid RP. But, even if they actually tried their hardest and opened up Arte's pocketbook enough to outbid anyone, there is still no guarantee they would be able to any of those things with the exception of adding bullpen pieces.

52 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I am very happy that the Angels have some bodies getting closer to contributing.

I do not want to punt 2019.

I personally don't see how the Angels can possibly be much better in 2019 without getting help from a significant trade or free agent signing.

The problem is there aren't enough good FA options even if we were willing to spend the money (and the FAs decided to sign here).  Most are 32+ and the ones that aren't do not provide enough consistent production to be worth it.

That's why it is necessary to bring these guys up this season to see if they will be worth giving consistent playing time next year.  Otherwise they will have to sign an inconsistent 32+ veteran who will likely give us another round of frustration after they don't match the one good year they had.  

In order not to punt 2019 they need to see if these guys can play.  Ward is 24 and Thaiss is 23.  If they aren't ready to give it a shot now then they will never be ready.

25 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Where on earth are you getting the idea I dont want to see what these can do?  Find one post of mine anywhere that has said anything remotely close to that.

I have said that I am not optimist the 2019 answer to the team not sucking is likely in the form of the graduating class about to be in the majors.

I have said it seems more likely that they need to acquire a high impact player and then use the graduating bodies to fill in around the better players.

How you got that I don't want to graduate players and play them is a mystery.

 

I think its because people keep saying to graduate them and you keep saying something along the lines of, "I don't want to count on that".  Clearly we can't count on anything that is an unknown.  That is why these guys need to be given a shot.  Clearly it's going to take more than our minor league depth to compete.  

It is going to take a mix of both though.  It would have been nice to have Cron at first, but that ship has sailed.  So now we have to hope one of our minor league guys can hit because the FA market for 1B is pretty weak.  Between Fletcher and Cozart we would have 2B and 3B somewhat covered, but they need someone else preferably with more power.  If Ward can produce it would go a long way towards solidifying the infield.  Then there is RF.  Kole has figured it out it seems, but it is probably worth it to upgrade.  Harper? AJ Pollock?

There isn't much in the way of front line SP except maybe Keuchel.  RP can be had but likely for a decent price.

For me, to have confidence in 2019, the Angels need one of Thaiss, Ward, or Rengifo to show they can produce at the MLB level.  On top of that they need to sign one proven, veteran SP that doesn't have 1500+ IP in his career.  They also need a closer (Kimbrel would be awesome) and one or two other RP.  They also need to sign Harper (unless he's still demanding over his real value), Machado if he'll play 3B, or even Pollock who is a more consistent hitter than Kole and is also a GG caliber CFer.  And then they could move Kole to fill in depth somewhere.  If he keeps up his resurgence for the rest of the season then he will have a fair amount of value.

However, part of this all coming together is having one of our minor league guys contribute.  

Edit:  Also note Cron's numbers in Tampa Bay.  He's been what most thought he could be.  Angels just never let him play it out.  They sent him down every time he struggled.  What kind of message does that send the minor leaguers?  For a game that is so mental you should instill confidence in your young guys.  The veterans are the ones who need the stern message of "produce or get out".  This organization has everything flip flopped.

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

No argument that miracles happen.

It's just not a good plan to count on it.

I think you make moves to stack the team and then when a miracle happens it puts you over the top.

I would not be comfortable with a plan where we need to wish Ward or Thaiss are suddenly high impact major leaguers.

This team needs another high impact bat and a front line starter and an entire bullpen.  Those solutions (at least for 2019 anyway) are most likely not coming from the minors or off the DL.

It's not miracles.  This is something that happens with multiple players every single year.  Donaldson is an extreme example.  I'm not talking about planning on these guys for next year.  The point is to give them a shot now when the team is nowhere near contention so you can see how they fare.  If one or more shows they are legit wouldn't it be better to know that before going into the offseason so you can better determine your depth and what needs to be addressed?  You certainly need more than a handful of games to see if someone is legit.  If they don't bring them up soon and really give them a shot then I agree with you.  What if Ward is brought up this week and just does well the rest of the season?  Do you feel comfortable with him at 3B for next season?

2 hours ago, Griffey's Corner said:

I think there is a balance. It's important to give players a chance and give them a good fair chance so they are not looking over there shoulder all the time. But at the same time understanding that most prospects fail.... and probably with the position players enjoying the benefits of playing in Salt Lake.... that even a higher percentage of them will fail when they are not playing in such a hitter's park.

Right...so how do we know if they will fail or not?  Now is a great time to test the waters.  There's no way of knowing which ones (if any) will pan out so in a lost season why not give them all a shot (the ones that are in AAA)?  The guys they would be replacing at the MLB level are already providing negative value so whats the harm?

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I would be thrilled if the Angels were so offensively stacked that playing a guy hitting .162 didn't hurt them.

Can you see how vastly different this is compared to the Angels having 4 or 5 bad spots on the lineup and foolishly believing that promoting 3 or 4 bodies is going to adequately fix those problems, especially when the group we are talking about (the 2019 ready players) have never been considered great prospects.

I think you are missing the point.  Clearly the chances of all those guys panning out and filling all those holes is essentially 0%.  But maybe one or two could be filled.  We need to know that BEFORE next year.  I brought up the Astros because they are a team that could actually be hurt by having a prospect come up.  He is not helping their lineup at all and yet they continue to give him a chance.  The Angels have a bunch of veteran scrubs in their lineup.  These guys are contributing nothing and the Angels playoff chances are essentially gone.  Why are you opposed to giving these guys a shot NOW (not 2019) so that we can see if some of them can produce?

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

That's fine but what about next year?  Are you really going to be capable of being optimistic about next year if the changes are things like having Ward over Valbuena?   Or the Angels get Shoemaker back to replace Richards in the rotation?

These kinds of changes are not going to make a difference.  Help in actual wins and losses FOR NEXT SEASON is not coming out of the minors or off the DL.  I think that's delusional.

I know the Angels got burned by Pujols and Hamilton.  But one was old and one was a drug addict.

The Angels need to go get a Machado, make a deal for a front line starter, and somehow build a bullpen.

Otherwise we are having this same conversation next July.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, I don't agree with the first part.

Everyone talks about Max Muncy. There are always guys like him. Josh Donaldson was like that. How do you know what you have if you don't give them a shot? How can any of us legitimately say whether or not having Ward, Thaiss, etc makes us more optimistic than having Valbuena when we all have no clue how they will perform? That's why they need to play now. 

I mean look at the Astros.  They are trotting Kyle Tucker out there Every.Single.Day. I know Kyle Tucker is one of the top prospects in baseball, but they don't need him right now. They are trying to hold their top spot in the division and vye for home field advantage but here they are going on 14 games in a row of having his .162 average and .468 OPS in the lineup because they realize how important it is to give these guys a real shot at the Major league level.

I'll wait to complain until next year.  This was his make or break year.  He got healthy for the first time in years and this was the year where we would see if he could put up some decent numbers.  He didn't.  His slash line is nearly identical to last season.  So he needs to retire or like he said he would or the front office has to do something about it.  

For now at least he's still hitting fairly well with RISP.  

Definitely Skaggs for a great night pitching and keeping us ahead of a guy who's been one of the best pitchers in baseball so far this year.  However, even more so for the fact our bullpen finally got some sort of rest thanks to pitching a full 7 innings for (i think) only the 3rd time this year.