floplag

This is exactly the issue, we keep feeding the Arte revenue train no matter what he does.  OMG i get to watch Trout... lose again.  and Ohtani, oh they lost. 
Were the problem, we dont hold him accountable.  We keep giving him 3M gate and fawning over a couple guys while the team is a train wreck. 

12 hours ago, Second Base said:

Should the Angels look to trade _______? 

Answer: Yes!

This
No the name in the blank doesnt matter at this point.

Honestly, right now, none.
Trout was different, they could still sell the intent to win, at this point thats moot.  Trout probably pissed himself if were being real.
Money wont be the factor for Ohtani, he will get larger offers from others, just as so many other players have, and he has all thetoptions in thew world now with the universal DH.   WE are lucky that didnt happen sooner or we never get him.
Arte had so many chances to fix this club, and simply isnt going to do it.
Enjoy it while yuou can guys, he wont be here long term. 

On 7/17/2022 at 9:00 AM, Angelsjunky said:

Not sure what your point is, except "throw money at the problem" and "If they're not spending as much as the Yankees, they're not trying!"

The Angels are consistently in the top ten of payroll. Arte has laid out the cash for big free agent signings, multiple times. But every time, the team made bad choices. 

This is not to say I think you're wrong that they need to go over budget for a year or three to get the team back to contention. Maybe that will happen this offseason - say, going after Trea Turner or Xander Bogaerts. But to say they haven't spent when they're always in the top ten and have a long list of bad free agents and trade acquisitions just seems kind of silly.

Also, the farm hasn't gone backwards. It is better now than it was five years ago.

That is the path the chose though... there is no other solution to win right now.  You dont develop a farm over night, heck he havent over 5-10 years now. 
It isnt that he hasnt spent, ive never said that, but what he hasnt done is spend to the level that will matter.  He spent on guaranteed return on investment in Trout and Ohtan i, and when he had the balls to face the media he always siad he would spend on the right guys... well apprently that came with a side note, those that would generater revenue, not wins. 
That payroll is half on three guys, one of which isnt even playing for us anymore.
Top 10 payroll isnt getting it done unless you hit lightning in a bottle on the kids, and were not.  Not drafting mid pack every year or worse.  And im sorry but the farm ranking disagree with your statement, were not in the bottom third, were in the bottom 3 per some.  The far mis not better.  Yes its graduated a lot but so had everyone elses that moved ahead of us. 
The only short tertm fix is to do exactly as you say, throw more at it, do what the Mets have done for example and eat the tax a couple years if you have to.
Otherwise its 500 ball and Arte cashing checks.   
Either way it seems that time has passed, it was never going to happen, this is simply who/what we are.  Its no mytsery why Arte hasbent spoken to the media in the last few years, this was his plan, it had nothing to do with winning. 

On 7/15/2022 at 11:43 AM, Angelsjunky said:

Well, the obvious answer is: When they're good enough to have a chance of a playoff berth, which has been rare in recent years. At least this year it is clear: they're not contenders, so we don't have to go through the usual "will they, won't they" of their typical .500ish records in July.

And of course the reasons they haven't been in a place to "play to win" have been discussed endlessly, and mostly come down to poor executive choices compounded over the years, what we could call the Curse of Vernon Wells. From that point on-- January of 2011--this team has been very poorly run, with far more bad decisions than good ones. 

But more importantly, the bad decisions are often in reaction to previous bad decisions not working out as hoped.

So there's a layer of frustration beyond the simple level of bad results on the field: the fact that the front office gives very little reason for confidence in future decision making. We now have two offseasons by Perry Minasian, neither of which moved the needle in a positive direction or yielded promising returns. Maybe he deserves (and will get) a third and fourth try, if only because he's signed through 2024, but he's definitely on watch.

No im sorry, thats self inflicted in my opinion.
They could have been good enough at almost any point in recent years had ownership valued more than revenue.
In the last 5 years weve seen too many teams actually make the playoffs that we could have been better than had ownership fuflilled its promoses of the past.
Willing to over spend for the right guy, willing to do whatever it takes... in the end, all hes done is invent is 2 high priced guys that generated revenue and done absolutely nothing to help around them even with ample opportunities.
The farm has gone backwars with eqaul enthusiasm. 
We have only one out, the same one weve hade for years, and its the one thing ownership refuses to do.
Mets ownership came into an eqaully dire situation, knew what it would take, and got it done, with one of our former GMs Arte fired i might add. 
This was always what it was going to take, to bust the budget for a few years to buy time... Arte has chosen not to do so, he put that revenue and the budget over winning, all i a time when he was trying to buy billions in land so forgive me if i think 50 millions is pennings to the man in the grand scheme. 
 

At what point, if any, does this club actually play to win versus the inevitable next season roster determination?

Not with the current roster, no.
If you did it wont compete past the WC game.
IF however Arte pulls his head out of his posterior orifice and makes some bold moves, its possible, sure. 
Will that happen, i doubt it. 

This is why the whole thing is going to be a clusterfuck... MLB has to over think it.
It doesnt need lines on the field, thats absurd.
Its simple, we all know where the default spots are, 3B or 1B cant go past where the default 2B spot is, 2B or SS cant go to other isde of the bag.  Everyone has to have a foot on the infiled dirt if an infileder. 
You dont want to eliminate shifts, it part of the game, you just want to limit the joke they have become.
If they are trying to bring back the up the middle hit then add in you cant be behind the bag but for gods sake dont draw some absurd lines on the field!

Well, hes not wrong, but its moot unless Trout wants it to happen.
To be clear, i dont want it to happen, i want this team to make a run wih him, and extend Ohtani and do what it takes to get to the next level, BUT.. if ownership isnt willing to do that then yes, you consider both him and Ohtani. 
No, youll never get value, but what you get will have a lot of value and will certainly be better than nothing.
There are teams that would jump at the chance, and frankly i think he deserves that chance if were not willing to give it to him.
This team needs to either take the next step, or rebuild, this wishy washy in the middle things is achieving nothing.  And at this point i have no faith that Arte is even considering taking any steps based on his actions in recent years.
All that having been said, he wont do so as it would hurt revenue, which i beleive is all he really covets, not winning.   
We thought we got a savior owner, we got played.   Unril he proves me wrong, this is where i am. 

13 hours ago, Stradling said:

Well if this year won’t be any different then why would you predict he buys?  He hasn’t done that in 6 years. 

This.
Anyone still holding out hope for Arte to suddenyl go ham on payroll, please, for your own good, stop folding your breath.  If anything hes proven the opposite.
No more talk of "the right guy"... in fact no more talk from him period.
We know who he is at this point, hes all about revenue, not winning.
He wont trade guys that make him money, even if he should to better the team, and he wont spend arounf generational talents that any other owner not based on Oakland would love to have the opportunity to do. 

Artes making money, lol 

Frustration, irritation, i mean if you were him wouldnt you be fed up beyond beleif? 

1 hour ago, AngelStew43 said:

Answer truthfully, if the Angels traded Trout and Ohtani, for those who have suggested that, would anyone pay good money to go and watch what is left?  

I doubt that I would. 

I would pay to see the team try, over what they are giving us, yes.
I will not pay to see the debochle they are, superstars or not.
Do you truly enjoy seeing Trout cat a few times a night around a loss?  Thats somehow fun for you?  I bet even he would trade his performance for wins.
This logic is what got us into this mess.  People paying to see Trout, instead of the Angels. 

9 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Do both, like the Dogs did.

Not to the extent that Guggenheim spent, but Arte can go over the tax threshold to re-sign Ohtani and Syndergaard plus start bringing in better support players, all the while making sure the farm is solid enough from year to year and the FO has enough baseball acumen in it to get the right players and prospects and the right manager and coaches.

Then again, that’s what I’d do if I had nearly $2 billion net worth outside of the team and paid for the franchise up front.

Yes but that assumes he would do that, and at this point i do not think he will.  Hes had how many chances now to do so?  what would change it now if it wasnt worth it before?

11 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Arte Moreno is NEVER going to be known as the owner who traded those two.  That would become his legacy and that's not happening.

Which i worse, that or the guy that couldnt win with them?  Hes buggared either way at this point. 

There are only two options, not counting an absurd amount of luck, and the answer will largely depend on how fast you want the team to be competitive or reelevant again.  Ill admit up front im as negative about this team as i think ive ever been right now... too many years of supposedly working some plan to somehow get worse each year... ive realized the only real plan is line Artes pockets. 

IF you want to win in the next couple yeatrs, the only real option is to overspend.  There is no other path.  For all Artes talk about doing what it takes and the right guy yada yada, in the end the bussinessman won out, he isnt going to do that, hes gone as high as hes willing to go, thats obvious at this point.  He has completely ignored talking to the media or talking to the fans or letting anyone know what he intends for years now for exactly that reason, old news.  So, thats moot.

If you want to play the long game, which i suppose we have been it was just a lot longer than we thought, then you stay the course.  The problem with this is twofold, it doesnt work playing 500 ball, and you have no real shot and getting competitive FA to come here.  and thats before you get to the whole wasting Trout/Ohtani nonsene.

Arte isnt going to sell the team, which at this point is the only real answer to get someone who will do what it takes short term wehile building the future.  But im assuming that too is also moot.

The only real answer is a full fire sale.  Before anyone blows a gasket on me lets be honest, take the emotion out of it, If this was any other team, with any other players, would you honestly reccomend anything else?

Trade Trrout, Ohtani, Thor, literally anone not under long term control.  One year deals, gone, trade em.  If you cant win with them, why does it matter if they are here? Is watching them lose night after nioght fun to literally anyone?  Whatever the plan or model is or has been these last 5-10 years, its an astract failure in every possible way. 

Now that having been said, do i think it will happen, no, Arte wont give up the revenue streams those players create... so he will lose them in the end for nothing.  Ohtani will not extend, he has zero reason to with the universal DH, we already dropped that ball. 

If they do this they might be terrible for the next few years, but hey whats the real difference between winning 80 games or 70... either way your not relevant. 

Do the job right the first time, aka the off season.
Everything we needed was out there, this is a self inflicted wound casued by artes refusal to go over his defined budget while still over spending on players he wants.
When half you lineup nightly is guys that should not be ml starters, this is what you get.

For real though, what are we going to do now?  We now have multiple pos player spots in needd in addition to the pitching.
Are we going to go make some blockbuster trade to get Castillo/Farmer/Drury for half our farm?  I mean id love it but then wed here all about the sustainable crap again, as if weve sustained anything but loosing. 
Its going to take something massive and blockbusterish to right this team, and i dont think weve got the balls for it or are willing to spend the money to make it happen. 

15 hours ago, True Grich said:

This

37 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok Tommy Lasorda. We all care about the Angels, it doesn’t you are special or unique saying you care about the name on the front of the jersey.  

Also you said this:

“Same absurd arguments” after saying “its long passed time if this team actually cares about winning ever again” 

It’s just hilarious.  

At the end of the day they will re-sign him or trade him, but they won’t trade him in the next 6 weeks.  

 

Always sarcasm...  But yeah, he was right. 
All the same argument here year after year and the team is no better off, but sure lets keep doing the same things, the same mistakes over and over and over... 

17 hours ago, Stradling said:

But the gist of what you were saying is trade him this year instead of the off season.  He isn’t going to generate much revenue in the second half of a lost season.  They aren’t trading him this season if they are within 2 or 3 games of a playoff spot.  

Exactly, its about revenue, not making the team better.  And were now almost 5 out and thats of the expanded field so weve regressed even further from last season. 
They have to know by know, or at minimum have a good idea what his plans and thier options are, if they dont they are incompetent.
All im saying is that if they are not reasonably sure they can get it done, then you have to look at options.
I still care a lot more for the name on the front of the jersey, than the back, so no one should be 100% untouchable.
I would trade Trout and Ohtani or anyone else if it meant getting the angels back into winning ways sooner.   Watching two great players on a crappy team gives me personally no joy whatsoever. 
Barring some major turn around in the next couple weeks, and i mean major, you gotta start selling.  Its long passed time if this team actually cares about winning ever again.  How many years are we going to have these same absurd arguments?

24 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yes of course I say the same regardless of his ethnicity.  As for can they go on a run, I mean, why not?  They were 10+ games over .500 at one point, zero reason they can’t be there again.  

For the record it isnt about his ethnicity, its about the added revenue he creates that unique to most other players.
Could they, sure, will they... remains to be seen. 

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

They are 3.5 games back from a wild card and their schedule gets much easier moving forward.  So they aren’t trading him now.  

That winning strategy thats worked so well for how many years now? 
Youre probably right, if for no reason other than revenue over anything on field, but if this was any random American born player that doesnt have that attached, do you say the same?
3.5 back isnt a lot till you realize that also 3.6 further back than it would have been last youre so the expanded field is the only reason were that close. 
Can they go on a run as good as the bad was, sure, but are they showing any signs of that to you?
Lets win a damned series before we start talking about the wild card again shall we. 

They should know now, if they can or plan to keep him.  I suspect they do know the answer to that, which was probably the point of those informal conversations.
If they want to, the question really is will they.  Do we even want another top dollar deal when the ones we have appear to be preventing us from doing other things?   If Arte isnt willing to go to near lux tax payroll levels, which to date he has not been, then signing him means that much less to fill other spots. 120M to three players?  That doesnt leave much at the trough if hes only going to allow another 50-60.
If they dont or cant, then honestly, barring a monster turn around in the next 30 days, you have to deal him now.
Dont misunderstand me, i dont want to deal him, i want  Arte to extend him and still be willing to do more, but i really dont think thats realistic, does anyone here think he would do that when he hasnt to date?
Regardless, now is the time to make that decision, if were willing to go to those heights or not, and act on it to get max value in trade or lock him the heck up, if he even wants to be locked up.  

On 6/12/2022 at 11:00 PM, Docwaukee said:

point still stands.  they kept Rasiel in the hopes of re signing him?  right?  And if they've been rebuilding, then they're doing it wrong.  you don't rebuild by signing half assed guys that you hope catch lighting.  You spend 20m on a really good player for a 1yr pillow and trade them at the deadline.  And you move everything that isn't nailed down which you feel isn't a cornerstone.  And you don't spend 170-190m during a traditional rebuild.   Maybe that's part of the problem.  Organizational confusion.  Let's build a half assed team around two or three really good players and ignore everything else. 

Sorry.  but we haven't been rebuilding.  and we haven't even been retooling.  tooling.  I think we've just been tooling.  

I agree, this is accurate in my view.
They have done enough to keep the revenue steady, not near enough to actually compete.
Hoping for a little luck to make the post instead of going for it taking someones else getting lucky to stop it.

I think its long overdue.
Being average is a death sentence in any of these leagues.
For years all we talked about around here was growing sustainable success, well, you have to actually have success to sustain anything and weve been a 500 team while the farm has gone backwards.
Whatever we pay trout should just be above an beyond payroll, but clearly Arte doesn't see it like that and wont go beyond established limits and its just not good enough.
Im on board, whatever that means. whoever we lose, its time.