Troutstanding

Didn't think it was possible but the Angels actually got older.

 

Yet another 30+yr old in the lineup.  Stats don't really look too much different than Gio.  2016 projections are similar.  So whats the big deal?

 

Gott, already with a 95+ heater (which you can't teach), is young enough to learn how to balance his heat with offspeed stuff.  If he does, Scioscia just gave away a potential closer for one of his favorite things, a vet.  Perhaps more pressure on an aging Street, who is starting to show some wear. 

 

Don't like it, especially if no further BP activity.

Last I checked, the general manager was a guy called "Eppler"

Don't we have two 1B?

The poll that was posted here a few weeks ago was strongly in favor of the deal. My initial reaction was disgust, but quickly I grew to like the deal a lot.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But not all of those statistics support Trout over Donaldson.

 

My point is not that Donaldson was more deserving than Trout, but that it is--at the very least--very close, and the hyperbole in this thread is silly. Donaldson is a worthy MVP. Trout would have been a worthy MVP too, but played on a worse team. But this is hardly a travesty - Donaldson had a great year and was similarly deserving.

Oh, sure. I agree with you. I do. I also think it's absurd that people think that it's absurd.

But what statistics are you referring to? Just out of curiosity. 

Trout: 9.0 / 9.4

Donaldson: 8.7 /8.8

 

Those are their WARs from Fangraphs and Baseball Reference, respectively. They are close enough to be within the margin of error (1 WAR) that Fangraphs recommends.

 

In other words, even if Trout was better it wasn't by much, which makes this decision worth of question but not "ridiculous", "complete bullshit" or "an absolute joke."

Of course you're aware that WAR isn't the only statistic that can be used to measure player contribution. 

Why wasn't Cliff Pennington an option?

The upgrade defensively seems a little overblown imo largely because we already have a GG in right field. By having Heyward in right your defense in RF is just about the same as it would be with Calhoun there still. While putting Calhoun in left field is barely an upgrade over someone like Cespedes, Upton or Gordon. The difference those players bring to the plate would provide a more marginal upgrade than what Heyward brings offensively imo. As for his contract it seems like he'll get something around 8-10/160-200. 

 

 

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-sabermetrics-analysis/2015/10/26/9610954/st-louis-cardinals-free-agents-what-might-jason-heywards-contract-look-like

What makes you think that Calhoun would suffer so greatly by moving to left field? In any case Heyward is a better defender than Calhoun. 

Kiermaier is going into his third year.

That's one big reason why not's not a valid comparison. 

Whether he's comparable or not is irrelevant because he's under club control for four more seasons. 

He was made relevant to the discussion when he was brought up as reasoning for Heyward being overvalued. 

I'm using keirmaier as an example mainly because it shows that defense comes a lot cheaper than offense. Nobody drops big money on guys because they play defense. If you pay 200 mil you should be getting an offensive phenom not an above average offensive player. I wouldn't be surprised either if his numbers were to dip a bit leaving a club that somehow gets the best out of their players. Plus you have to consider you're moving a GG fielder(Calhoun) out of right and into left. How much better does the defense really get with calhoun/trout/heyward as opposed to leaving Calhoun in right and possibly signing cespedes, who will also be about 60 million dollars cheaper.

I like heyward he's a good player and would love to have him, just not for 200 million.

If you want to use a more appropriate comparison than Keirmaier, be my guest. A run saved is just as valuable as a run scored, though. Defense is valuable. If you don't feel the same way then I imagine you aren't too pleased about the acquisition of Aldrelton Simmons.

Heyward played for the Braves for the first 5 of 6 seasons of his career. 

I'll concede that moving Calhoun to LF is less than ideal but I think he'd do fine. That's something I would think the Angels would explore with Calhoun prior to signing Heyward but I don't know. Who's saying he's going to get $200 million anyway? I thought the estimates were closer to $160 million? 

Cespedes is an option, too. Personally I'm not a big fan of Cespedes but if the Angels signed him he would obviously be a major upgrade, too. 

He's Mike Trout?  I don't think so, he doesn't play CF.  What are his other weaknesses?

I'm not sure why we would even want him... he hasn't even had a 7.0 WAR season yet. Trout's been above that every season. 

That's still an absurd amount of money, for 200 mil you should be looking at an mvp caliber player. Guys like Kevin keirmaier play great defense and he won't get 1/4th of that money.

$200 mil doesn't buy you MVP caliber any more. 

Keirmaier isn't a valid comparison to Heyward for a multitude of reasons. 

I like heyward but he's going to get stupid money, I just can't justify paying a 260-270 15 hr hitter around 200 mill. Contracts these days are nuts.

There's more to (his) value than (his) BA and home run totals. To name a few, he's very young, possesses excellent defensive skills, and gets on base at an outstanding rate. 

It was clear to me from watching the games that Aybar wasn't getting get a glove on some of the balls he would have in year's past. Eye test confirmed. 

fangraphs defensive calculations seem too inconsistent for my taste.

 

w/e.. I guess he wasn't so bad.

 

Edit: Pujols and Napoli are basically on par with each other in every asset of their game, except one make 26 million a year and the other was traded for Vernon Wells.

Pujols is an above average defensive first basemen whether he is worth his salary or not. 

I mean outside of that fluke month, he was pretty damn terrible..

.231/.288/.419 .707 in the second half.

 

Overall .788 OPS which is below average for a 1st baseman.

 

Edit: Just realized you're talking about defense...point still stands.. He wasn't any good defensively. No range or mobility.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-2015-american-league-gold-gloves-by-the-numbers/

I was irked by the notion that Pujols is an average or below average first baseman. 

That article seemed to have been written by someone not totally familiar with the Angels team. 

We could have just signed Brendan Ryan and saved our prospects

**** man

No, we couldn't have. Brendan Ryan was worth negative value the last four years and even in his prime was not comparable to Simmons. 

I don't care how good defensively Simmons is, you don't trade an already plus defensive SS (regardless of contract year) that is also your best contact hitter, and then ADD two of your top level prospects on top sprinkled with $3 million for good measure, for a friggin' 9-hole hitter!!

 

One of the worst trades in recent memory for this team.

Aybar was worth -3.0 DRS last year. Not exactly plus defesively. For reference, Simmons was worth 25.0, more than three times the entire Angels team. 

it is I'm just messing

Thank god. 

you realize the 85 OPS + is atrociously bad.  Its well below major league average.  

No it isn't. Aybar's is 93. Last year Aybar was at 81. Was Aybar's offense atrocious last year?

If 85 is atrocious, then what's 115? Outstanding? No. 130-140+ is Outstanding. 85 is poor, but for a shortstop not outside the realm of ordinary. 

Okay guys... Simmons isn't "marginal." Not by a long shot. He's possibly the best defender of all time... He's an upgrade, a big one, and with 5 years of club control to boot. He's very valuable. Yes I get that we gave up a lot, too much even, but to say that Simmons is a "defensive specialist" is insulting to the guy who has no match defensively. It's not like he's completely inept with the bat either. He's a 85 OPS+ hitter with the best defense you've ever seen. 4 to 5 WAR is expected. He's 26 and coming into his prime. He's worth a lot. 

Wow... the difference between Aybar and Simmons defensively is significant, and at shortstop that defensive difference will be a dramatic upgrade, but to give up Newcomb and Ellis... Time will tell as always but right now I'd say we gave up too much... We as fans are always going to overrate our own player's values but still... Newcomb and Ellis? We do get Simmons for years to come but...Really? Really??!!?!?!

Defense at shortstop is obviously critical to team success. Aybar is no slouch, though last season I thought he was not quite as effective as year's past. Simmons is one of the best defenders of all time. I would absolutely love to have him. But no to Newcomb. Gotta keep him...

I'm not sure what crazy circumstances would have to be in place for me to feel that batting a .590 slugger lead off is the best idea.