JustATroutFan

17 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Just a fun factoid. Not sure if a pitcher has ever lead their team in both saves and wins.

These two stats are very dependent on teammates. I know a lot of people out there who are not fans of them. I'll include RBIs. They should remove RBIs as a Triple Crown stat and put something else like OBP in its place. I doubt sluggers with no defensive skills like Juan Gonzalez and Mo Vaughn would have been MVP winners if WAR (Wins Above Replacement) was around in the 1990s. 

1 minute ago, Jason said:

I don't know why but it seems like he's been on the IL for a really long time. 

As people on here have pointed out, he's been injury prone since 2017, which I hate just by knowing that. He was on the DL/IL in 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2021. And that's not counting 2020m where he lost over 100 games because of the coronavirus epidemic. He's lost like 50 career home runs since 2017 because of injuries and coronavirus. In a perfect world, he would have like less than 50 home runs to go for 400 career home runs. He probably won't get the all-time home run record once he hangs up his cleats but he would have a better chance if the league decides to juice the baseballs again like they did in the steroids era (1993-2009) to make many guys look like Trout at the plate with their inflated numbers. At least he can do no worse than being tied for having the most legitimate MVP awards (3) next to his name. A-Rod doesn't make the list because he admitted that he juiced with the Rangers, so that makes it one fewer legitimate MVP next to his name since he won one in 2003, his last season with the Rangers. Bonds only has three legit MVPs next to his name, which are the first three that he won. The last four, asterisk right next to all of them. 

11 minutes ago, Jason said:

I know but he still doesn't deserve it 

It's not like with the weak selection of Betts in Trout's case. Trout's done more than a lot of players who made the All-Star team in a less time this season. Plus, it helps when Trout is popular. He's like that kid in middle school where he is popular with everyone, including the girls, with his great performance and attitude. Jordan made the All-Star team in his second season in the NBA despite missing over half the season because of his name (and performance in his rookie season). Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill both made the All-Star team despite missing half the season at one point. People want to see the big-name stars play.

It's not even close. Ohtanimania is way more talked about than Wally World. Japan is no doubt following how Ohtani does, especially when he's doing incredible things this season. What Ohtani has done this season is being really followed by two countries. And Wally World isn't even bigger than Troutmania (2012) either. Wally World, I doubt not too many people know what that means, nor did it help change baseball. What Trout did in 2012 with his excellent all-around play helped changed the game. Many people only know of WAR (Wins Above Replacement) because of what Trout did in 2012. But Trout's 2012 performance has its effects on baseball. Because of him, guys like Heyward and Gorodn both got paid like superstar players even though they were never on that level because of wins above replacement. And teams know where a player plays his best defense now because of defensive WAR. A good example is Machado. His defense at shortstop is not good but his defense at third base is terrific and defensive WAR proves that. And the Padres currently puts him at third base. All of that ties back to Trout's 2012 season. 

Probably going to see Upton back tomorrow and most likely, he'll be back at hitting leadoff. Excellent move by Maddon when he put Upton at leadoff. I could see him putting Fletcher behind Upton because of his contact skills. Could see something like Upton-Fletcher-Ohtani-Walsh in that order by tomorrow and for the next few weeks, if Trout returns on July17. 

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

Remember when Harper was going to surpass Trout?

Harper's a really good player, but has settled in as a 4-5 WAR guy - a lesser star at best. Might be the most overrated player in baseball.

Any talk of him being on Trout's level has really been dead for about 5 years now. Harper started off in 2016 where he left off in 2015 and then the series where Maddon walked the guy six times in a game started his downfall and people were making that excuse of him being walked a lot as the reason for the guy as to why he had stopped hitting. Trout gets walked a lot and he is still a superstar as a hitter. Harper in 2015 was like what Betts was in 2018, a hitter who has a fluky hitting season. Many people have been saying that Betts is no doubt the second best player in all of baseball. Was he ever really the second best player in MLB? Since 2016, when he was runner-up to Trout in the AL MVP voting, there has been guys who people might put ahead of him at some point like Altuve (don't get too offended, I cheated back during my years of education and didn't get caught multiple times), Scherzer, deGrom, Kluber (pitched at a superstar level for three straight years from 2016-2018, including an ERA+ over 200 (!) in 2017), and Yelich.  I'm not even going to put Donaldson's 2015 season down as a fluke because he was still a great hitter in 2016. A case could be made that Donaldson was better in 2016 than he was in 2015. His 2016 OBP was better than it was in 2015, as was his OPS and OPS+. Trout posted an OPS+ of 168, 179, 168, 173, 186, 198, and 185 (Baseball Reference now has him at 180 for some reason that I can't say) from 2012-2019, which is outstanding. Yeah, Trout's greatness is there every single season since 2012. 

Trout's going to remain the clear-cut best player in all of baseball, which he's been since after 2013 until someone can be better than than him for about 2-3 years. Or Trout finally has that one "bad season" where he puts up something like a .270/.360/.510 slash line while another player has another great season, especially with the bat. 

59 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

My father--a Red Sox fan--asked me who was a better hitter, Mike Trout or Rafael Devers. I tried not to laugh and then told him that Devers wasn't even the best hitter on the Red Sox, but softened it by saying Devers is really good. I thought about trying to explain wRC+ to him, but didn't bother.

Trout's worst full season (2014) as a hitter still makes him a better hitter than Devers (2019) in his best full season as a hitter. In 2014, Trout has a .287/.377/.561 slash line. Devers, on the other hand, had a .311/.361/.555 slash line. The slash lines look very alike. But the OPS+ is not even in close. Devers had a 133 OPS+ in 2019, Trout posted a 168 OPS+ in 2014. 2014 was another "Year of the Pitcher" season like in 2012, 2013, 2015, and 2018. 2019 was one of those steroids era hitter seasons (1993-2009) where inflated offenses made so many guys look like Trout at the plate. If the baseballs were juiced in 2014 like it was in 2019, Trout's 2014 slash line would have been inflated by a lot. A bunch of deep flyball outs from 2014 from Trout would have been home runs if the baseballs were juiced. 

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Canseco / McGwire was pretty amazing

Probably the second best steroids duo after Manny and Ortiz. 

Former Angel Brian Goodwin has been a nice addition to the South Siders so far this season, as he currently has a .905 OPS in over 50 ABs for the White Sox for the 2021 regular season. 

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I hope a slew of other women come out with Bauer stories, and they get weirder and weirder. And we have gold to troll dodger fans with for the next 3 years

They tried killing a Giants fan back in 2011, Zodiac Killer-style. Such a classless fan base. 

Bauer now has a higher chance of going to prison than the Zodiac Killer. That's something that I didn't think was possible despite his (Bauer) liking for creating controversy before this. 

The Angels are what their record says they are. .500 is an average record, Angels are under .500, which means that they are a bad team. It's been like this since 2016. The last season when the Angels had a good record was in 2015, and even then, they weren't that good. People have been pointing out that the Angels are wasting Trout for years and they're not wrong. It's like what the Cubs did to Ernie Banks/Billy Williams and going further back, the Red Sox did the same thing to Ted Williams despite him giving them great seasons after great seasons. It's just a crime at this point for what the Angels have done to Trout by failing to put a winning product out on the field for a long time. To me, Trout is a once-in-a-century player. I mean, he's an eight-time All-Star, three-time MVP winner, has finished runner-up for the MVP four times (even then it's debatable that he should have won the MVP at least two more times), been Rookie of the Year, posted an OPS+ of 168 or better in his first eight full seasons despite playing a majority of those in pitching dominant seasons while playing terrific defense in center field. I don't think another player will be able to accomplish what Trout's done for the next 100 years, maybe even longer than that. 

I was reading about the 2002 Angels the other day and there was a section where Steve Bisheff basically said that the 2002 squad was the definition of a team. They didn't have a single superstar player, like Trout. However, they worked together as a team and did the little things that wouldn't always show up on the box score like putting the ball in play and moving runners over. The 2021 squad lacks the depth that the 2002 team had, especially in the pitching rotation. 

1 minute ago, Lou said:

I love hearing Yankees fans boo their team off the field. 

They deserve it, especially with the amount of money that many of their players are making. 

Never expected the Angels do come back and win after being down by seven runs this season. Miracles can happen. Zodiac Killer finally getting caught next? 

Just now, St1ck said:

The Angels had no business winning this game. That was awesome.

Yankees are just that bad this season. They're be under .500 soon. 

Chapman is the definition of a thrower. Have never been known as a guy who is known for locating his pitches. 

7 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

It obviously worked out horribly... but Pujols / Hamilton should have been amazing. Then sprinkle in Trout coming out of nowhere.....

The triplets of Hamilton, Pujols, and Trout made a lot of headlines shortly after Hamilton signed with the Angels in December 2012. People were expecting the Angels' offense to be the best of the elite offenses for 2013. 

Manny and Ortiz? The duo is disqualified immediately. Yeah, they're the best cheating duo in MLB history. Probably hung out with each other 24/7 and had fun using steroids. I'll say the best duo is Ruth and Gehrig. They were both great at the same time for awhile. It's going to be hard for any duo to top what they did on the diamond. 

5 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

One different with Pujols is that Pujols whole plate approach changed, probably starting in 2011 or even late 2010 (he had a poor second half, so I think started declining after his ridiculous first half of 2010). Pujols became a hacking power hitter. Rendon is far more disciplined and, I think, won't do that. So at worst, he'll stabilize at a lower level - maybe .280/.370/.460 - for a few years, and thus still be a ~4 WAR player. We can hope for more than that, though.

Speaking of hacking power hitter, Baez (his performance has falling off a lot from 2019), assuming he can find it with the bat from now until the end of the regular season, is going to be the next player who nobody would say is a superstar and will still get paid like a superstar in a few months. Say he finishes with a .260/.300/.500 slash line for the 2021 regular season and continues to play terrific defense, a massive contract is coming his way, something like a contract that is worth $180 million over 7 years. So a solid, albeit not great, hitter with terrific defense will get paid superstar money if that is the case with Baez by the start of this year's free agency. Looks like a couple of players that I went over yesterday. Baez's WAR for the 2018 and 2019 regular season were 6.4 and 6.7 on Baseball Reference. If Baez does indeed get that massive contract, he should thank Trout for being a big part of why he got the contract. Gordon and Heyward both should be thanking Trout for how much they got paid after the 2015 regular season. Geez, I wonder if Figgins would have gotten something like a contract that was worth $72 million over 4 years if Wins Above Replacement had existed back in 2009. Figgins had a WAR of over 7.0 in the 2009 regular season, including a 3.3 defensive Wins Above Replacement that same season. 

On 6/25/2021 at 4:47 PM, cals said:

You gotta give Maddon a lot of credit for pushing Minasian to make the move to drop Pujols.  Probably gained them 5 wins right there.

Also would like to add that Maddon didn't let Pujols bat cleanup. Very good on Maddon's part in not getting caught up the name on the back of #25's jersey. 

I mean, the Dodgers currently employ a girl beater (Urias) on their team...

6 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

So you're saying that Trout is to WAR what Ruth was to HR? Ha. Anyhow, I think even today's WAR-informed voters would have a hard time not giving it to the Triple Crown winning Miggy Cabrera. 

I agree that Trout fueled WAR popularity, but I'm not sure he was the main, and definitely not, only reason it is so popular. The sabermetrics movement goes back 40 years to old grand-daddy Bill James, and has gradually increased in popularity. Trout simply showcased the value of WAR.

But yes, I agree that some players became more valued than they would have, if WAR didn't exist. On the other hand, it may be that baseball orgs have their own in-house metrics that are "WAR-esque" (or better), that they would have used to recognize the value of the Gordons and Heywards of the world.

p.s. I guess you don't believe in paragraph breaks? 

I don't see it as a coincidence that Gordon and Heyward both got paid superstar money in 2015 because of WAR. No one would have said any of those two were at one point superstar players at the big leagues after the 2015 regular season. You're right that Trout's not the only reason that WAR became famous because the people who created WAR should get recognition for that too. But he made it famous. The same can be said for Ruth. He didn't invent the long ball. And people were already hitting a few, not many, before he did. But he did make home runs popular just like what Trout did for WAR. In terms of changing the sport that they played in, I'll add Curry in the list and what he's done when it comes to shooting threes. He's hitting like 400 threes (!) a season these days. I once thought that hitting even 200 threes in a season was a lot for a player. He's doing twice as many. Now the NBA is becoming a league where the obsessions for threes is off the charts and that is because of Curry. He didn't invent it because he helped changed the way the game is played and old school folks hate that teams are shooting more threes than ever. 

14 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Good points, although I think you undersell Betts a bit. Sure, he only had one "Troutian" season, but he's had a bunch of other great ones. Trout is one of the rare players whose default mode is 9 WAR; Betts has averaged 7.6 WAR over 162 games for his career, which I think is at least borderline top 10 of all time. After he declines a bit, he could still be top 30, which is pretty damn great.

But yeah, Trout is on another level. As great as the Three Juniors and Soto are, and how great I think Franco will be, I don't see them having a ten-year span in which they averaged over 9 WAR per season. Only a few players have done that in baseball history.

I doubt Betts would have finished in second place to Trout in the 2016 AL MVP voting if Trout didn't make Wins Above Replacement famous in 2012. I could see someone like steroids Ortiz or even Donaldson finishing ahead of Betts in 2016 if Trout never burst onto the scenes in 2012 because that was the first season where Wins Above Replacement was gaining its recognition. It's likely that Trout would have won the 2012 AL MVP if people had value WAR the same way as they do now. So back to Betts. To me, not counting 2020 (60-game season), the only season where I for sure can say that he was an elite hitter was in 2018, and even that season should have some controversy with Cora as his manager, Doubt Betts would have gotten that contract that the Dodgers handed out to him if WAR never existed. Same for Lindor. Like I already stated, guys like Gordon and Heyward only got paid superstar money because of WAR (especially defensive WAR), which was made famous by Trout. And yes, Trout DID indeed changed the game of baseball because his performance in 2012 changed the way people value a player's performance. You see guys like Machado playing third base currently rather than shortstop because defensive WAR says he is an excellent defensive third basemen but not a good defensive shortstop. The same thing happened to Trout (funny) in 2014. The Angels moved him back to center because defensive WAR stated that he wasn't on his game in left while at the same time, it showed that he was excellent defensively in 2012. The examples that I just provided about players playing the positions that best suited for them was only made possible because of Trout changing the game. I think Trout should get more attention for changing the game than he is getting. Playing good defense is such an important factor in winning games, and that means putting guys in the right place to succeed. 

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

Interesting how quickly things can change. Two years ago, the top four players according to fWAR were Alex Bregman, Mike Trout, Christian Yelich, and Cody Bellinger. I'll add two more names: Anthony Rendon at 7th and Mookie Betts at 9th.

Now look at how those six are doing this year, ranked by fWAR among players with 50+ PA:

25. Betts: .253/.371/.471, 136 wRC+, 2.5 fWAR

33. Trout: .333/.466/.624, 193 wRC+, 2.3 fWAR 

102. Bregman: .275/.359/.428, 120 wRC+, 1.2 fWAR

134. Yelich: .253/.409/.404, 127 wRC+, 0.9 fWAR 

206. Bellinger: .224/.348/.382, 108 wRC+, 0.5 fWAR

223. Rendon: .230/.313/.360, 87 wRC+, 0.4 fWAR

Betts is having a solid year, and not far from his typical season (2018 clearly looking to be an outlier). His numbers are slowly creeping up, and chances are he finishes around 6 WAR, but if I'm the Dodgers I'm wondering if a 12-year contract was such a great idea. Trout has been injured, but was his usual great self. But the others...all have fallen through the roof. 

Meanwhile, a new group of "young gods" have risen up to replace the "titans." The Three Juniors--Vlad, Tatis, and Acuna--are in the top 4 (along with a resurgent/healthy Carlos Correa) and--along with Juan Soto (who has underperformed this year) and new pup Wander Franco--considered to be the future top players in the game, a future which has already arrived.

What is striking is how quickly this has changed. This is not to say that some or all of the above players won't bounce back, but it also seems that a sea change is occurring, a youth movement, if you will. Even if those guys bounce back, they will find the top to be a more crowded place, and most of them have likely been surpassed already by the top young players.

It isn't like it is only this year. Bregman, Yelich, Bellinger, and Trout all had down years (relatively speaking) in 2020, but it was easy to write that off as the result of the unusual nature of that season. But now I'm not so sure. Trout's ability is still there, and for a while it looked like he had actually improved, but then he slumped mightily and was injured, so at the very least, even if he remains the best player in the sport for another few years, it will be with the phantom of an injury-prone label. 

I don't know what is up with the other three. It could be that Bregman was greatly benefited in 2018-19 by the Astros nefarious approach, and has simply dropped down to his true talent level. But Yelich and Bellinger? The latter has been injured most of the year, but both seem like shadows of their 2019 selves.

The times they are a-changin, or just off-years coinciding, or maybe somewhere in between?

Betts and Bellinger, the two so-called Trout challengers for the crown of best player in all of baseball, both living off one fluky season at the plate. This is what makes Trout's so great, he puts up elite seasons at the plate every single season. Someone will have one fluky season like them and someone will get caught up in the moment and think they're all of a sudden on Trout's level. Trout is the Jordan of MLB. He's on a level all by himself. Not just that but like Jordan, Trout helped changed his sport. Trout's greatness helped changed the way people value a player's overall performance. That can be put in three words: Wins Above Replacement. Trout made Wins Above Replacement famous and if it weren't for him, I doubt guys like Alex Gordon and Jason Heyward would have got superstar money. And neither of those two guys were every superstar players. And teams know what position a player is best suited on defense just looking at defensive WAR. An example would be Machado, who is an excellent defensive third basemen but not so much as a defensive shortstop just looking at his defensive WAR. 

1 minute ago, robblin17 said:

Great win! Some life? 

No. Seen this before with the Angels so many times lately.