HaloWay94

1 minute ago, Lou said:

Show me when Fletcher started a full season. 

La Stella started more games his rookie year than Fletcher has his entire career. 

man, you really suck at this. 

You just proved my point... both players have small sample sizes.  People are acting like La Stella has some huge career to look at, when he has been a bench player the majority of his career

3 minutes ago, Lou said:

lol nice try. 

if you just admit that you were wrong people might respect what you say. 

I was way off on the numbers and wrong.

But the point remains that those numbers should have no bearing on where he is in the lineup today. 

Just now, Dochalo said:

it's seems that based on your assessment of the way things should be you should hate baseball and find another sport.  

Stellar advice.  Baseball is a beautiful game and it's being warped by people who don't get it.

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

If you were paying attention, my point was sample size from both spots.  Fletch has the majority of his at bats from the bottom 3 spots in the order.  Thanks for the correction and also missing the point

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Baseball is a long run sport. Advantages play out over the course of 162 game season. You need to learn to not draw conclusions from 12 ABs or one week when you have 162 game samples at your disposal. 

Great, show me the numbers of La Stella starting a full season. And no, you have to play the hot hand

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

As do you.  Once again if your lead off hitter is allergic to drawing a walk he isn’t going to be a lead off hitter for long.  There are many variables to creating a line up and not the least of which is trying to get a guy on track.  Lefty hitter who draws walks against a righty pitcher he’s had success against in the past and he gets to hit in front of Trout.  By all means get pissed about it.  I’ll choose to understand why instead of being irrational about it happening.  

Oh no I understand why... you don't need to watch the games anymore because prior stats perfectly predict future outcomes...

Or that the best thing for the team is putting a slumping hitter in the lead off spot...

Or that Fletcher not taking walks is a reason to put La Stella in over him when he's hitting .167

Rationality...tricky sob sometimes.

7 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Tommy LaStella hit .285 against righties last year.  @arch stanton noted that he’s had success against Shelby Miller.  If he pitches into the 6th.  Then LaStella will have 2 or 3 AB’s against him.  Your concerns about situational hitting are ill founded today. 

My point is Fletcher being 6 for his last 12 is more important than La Stella's 3 ABs against Miller in a previous season.  

7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Dude you wanna talk about bringing up illogical points, how bout your nonsense about pinch hits as if that means something or adds something other than you trying to discredit La Stella because reasons.  I guess Albert should hit clean up since he hit a home run.   Skaggs should start because he pitched well yesterday. Leadoff hitters need to walk, Fletcher doesn’t.   

Oh please, if you're gonna respond at least think it through. I claimed none of those things.

If you can't see how pinch hitting skews stats, you gotta take a closer look at the game and all of its variables.

Lead off hitters also need to hit above .167.

17 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t really care whether it’s LaStella or Fletcher.  I don’t think either are particularly good lead off batters.  I’ve been saying that LaStella makes more sense leading off then batting like 6th or 7th.  It would be fine for him to bat 9th as well.  I’m not arguing that I think he’s a better player then David Fletcher.  The two are interchangeable in the lead off role for the 04/07/2019 Angels.  There aren’t a lot of options.  In a good line up David Fletcher and Tommy LaStella are both bottom of the order guys. 

Also, I don’t understand the point of your comment on his “pinch hitting” numbers.  He collected a volume of AB’s.  I think it’s ok to take that as face value.  He played quite a bit for the Cubs last year. 

Can you read ? 

As a pinch hitter in mainly the 8 or 9 hole he is going to get pitched around to get to the pitcher or he will get a lot of fastballs to avoid turning the lineup over.  He may also get a lot of fastballs if he's coming in to hit with runners on base.  Assuming most of these at bats were 6th inning or 7th inning, he's also facing almost exclusively middle relief pitchers.  These differences also combine with the mental aspect of never going 0 for 4 in one game and having to break a slump.  

Those factors skew numbers for better or worse.

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This is exactly why Fletcher shouldn’t be leading off, his OBP is his batting average.  I’m not saying La Stella should lead off but once his batting average normalizes his OBP will Out perform Fletcher because he won’t hit .333 all year and his major and minor league career shows he has never walked. 

First off, we are talking about today's game against the rangers with the current set of players.  In that context, there's no question Fletch should be leading off.  

The point that the majority of Angels fans have been trying to make for the last 2 years is that the lineup is being constructed based on irrelevant stats rather than who is playing well.  For example, Fletch's career BA in the 9 hole compared to the lead off spot is an irrelevant stat.  Fletch has started 18 games at leadoff in his career.  He's started in the 9 hole for over 40 games.  The idea that we should never bat him lead off on those grounds, especially when he's 6 for 12 in the series is illogical.  

In addition, I don't think La Stella's pinch hitting stats are going to transfer as a starter.  Pinch hitting statistics are often skewed because of the situations.  It's unlikely they will carry over when hes getting 4 at bats a game.  

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

Just pointless.  The main difference between batting 9 and 1 is that 1 probably ends up with one more at bat.  For David Fletcher that’s not that big of a deal.  It’s still a table setting role.  You’re bitching about nothing.  

And you’re making absurd judgements about LaStella.  You are literally deferring to a tiny chunk of data from the 1st week of season over a much larger amount of data represented by the guys career numbers.  Just reactionary bullshit. 

Rokay.  Let's let him hit for 3 months like Valbuena and hope he magically becomes a valuable starter.  La Stella has no career numbers to back him up as a starter.  All of his numbers are as a national league bench guy/pinch hitter.  If you don't see the difference between starting every day and pinch hitting once a game, well I don't know what to say.  The numbers won't translate they never do.   

Just to be clear- you are saying it makes more sense to put Fletcher 9 and La Stella lead off today?? Give me a break.

Fletcher has proven where he belongs.

8 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The 9 hole is a good spot for hitters that get on base or make contact.  It provides opportunity for the mid order thumpers.  Trout and Bour today.  It’s a fine spot for Fletcher.  I realize that his ability to make contact also profiles well batting first.  LaStella is on the team because of  his demonstrated ability to get on base (in his career - not one week of this season) and play multiple positions.  Getting on base is usually regards as a good thing for lead off hitters.  

This isn't rocket science.  What’s crazy is that we constantly keep trying to run a guy with sub .300 OBP in the lead off spot.  

Missing the point entirely.  Fletcher is 6 for his last 12 and got on base 4 times yesterday from a lead off spot.  Common sense says, roll with that guy in the leadoff spot.  Common sense does not say "Well in previous seasons with a different team.. as a pinch hitter.. this other guy hitting .167 is 2 for 3 against the starting pitcher so let's lead him off instead and put the 6 for 12 guy where he gets the least at bats.  That's insane and ruining baseball. 

To your last point... La Stella OBP this season .241.....Fletch .333.  

51 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok, so math won’t tell you if a player will perform but your eyes will, got it.  We have seen that Fletcher doesn’t like taking a walk, we have seen that in the majors during his short time and we saw it in the minors.  

Yes.  Numbers are valuable, but when you have two similar players, you gotta trust what you see.  You have to look at small details of the game, their mental makeup, and if they bring something to the table. La Stella's ridiculous cutoff the other night wont show up in anyone's stats.  It's not an error.  But it's a huge indicator that shouldn't be ignored. On the other hand Fletch beating the shift against the dodgers in the freeway series is a positive that shouldn't be ignored.  But you won't find it in the stats.

The walk thing is a fair point. And that's probably Fletch's weakest point outside of his obvious lack in power.  But becoming more patient as a hitter is something that he can develop.  We're acting like he's stuck at a 5% walk rate. But even with his lack of patience, La Stella doesn't have the upside to justify him getting a platoon job.  

And no this switch wouldn't fix us being 1-3.  But it's something that bugs me as a fan of the team and fan of Fletcher.  Any way you slice it, we just have to try to stay alive until Ohtani's back. 

Just now, RBM said:

No, instead they handed the job to a 30 year old career lefty pinch hitter with subpar defense who has averaged 147 PA's over the past four years. Makes no sense for Tommy La Stella to be one of 30 starting MLB second basemen IMO.

Preach

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

No, Eppler didn’t replace Fletcher with LaStella, they are both on the roster.  If we’re going to blame Scioscia then we should be blaming Ausmus if people believe blame is deserved. 

Ausmus didn't sign La Stella.  And I don't hate Eppler, I'm eternally grateful for the Trout signing and I think Upton and Ohtani are huge achievements  as well.  But in the case of Cozart and La Stella, I think he made bad choices. 

Yes I know how OBP  is calculated.

But those numbers can't tell you if a guy is gonna come through with the game on the line or go from being a pinch hitter to a starter.  The eyes are important. And I think you lose more by having Fletch on the bench than having La Stella on the bench.  We also haven't seen what Fletcher can do.  He's played a half a season.  La Stella is a career bench player.

16 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Go ahead and disagree, it's what the board is for. Personally I would prefer Fletcher at 2nd base over La Stella primarily by familiarity and he's the home grown talent. But, La Stella is a left handed bat with a history of a high OBP on a team with only one left handed bat in Calhoun.

That is probably part of the decision making process and, as Senior Fletch pointed out, performance is going to determine who gets more starts considering both have their flaws.

Another thought is once Ohtani comes back and inserts some power into the lineup from the left side there may be less interest in balancing the lineup and it can live with Fletcher and his lower OBP. The team, right now, is missing two parts of the offense with both Ohtani and Upton not on the roster. Without those two providing some power the Angels have to create scoring opportunities through getting guys on base and grinding out some hits. Getting on base being the primary need. 

Totally agree with you there. And I'm especially with you on the homegrown talent as a reason I'm rooting for Fletch.

Our offense is pretty bleak without Ohtani and Upton, and we only have one lefty.  That's a good argument.   I guess where I disagree is whether La Stella will provide that OBP boost over Fletcher.  And if one more walk every 5 games is gonna be worth the loss on defense.  And I'm not anti-numbers, I just think it's easy to overthink these decisions and reduce the game to them.  OBP isn't a substance that enables you to break a slump or magically go from a pinch hitter to an everyday starter.  And it's certainly no indicator of future numbers.  La Stella could go .600 OPS this year or he could go .800 and the only way to make that prediction is the eye test in my opinion.  I think Fletch has a higher ceiling in that regard though others may disagree.  It also ticks me off that between two players who are very close in overall value, they go with the outside hire over the homegrown fan favorite for 3/4 games so far.

Don't mean to sound like mindless jerk.  It just seems like the mediocre vet is a recurring theme in angels management the last decade and it frustrates me @Jeff Fletcher

1 minute ago, Blarg said:

Then you should know Jeff has way more eye testing than you. 

You're right, Jeff and Billy know best, stupid me for disagreeing smh

I stand by my statements.  Jeff's logic hinges on an obsession over the OPS of a career pinch hitter vs. a solid rookie campaign.  Trust your eyes man.

2 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Nailed it.

I know who Jeff Fletcher is... the point remains... many people are trying to outsmart the eye test and common sense by over analyzing numbers.

11 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

 

LaStella has. .709 OPS over nearly 1,000 major league PA’s. In 1500 minor league PAs its .842. Fletcher is .674 in 312 MLB PA’s and .743 in 1500 minor league PA’s.

There is no evidence that Fletcher is better than La Stella offensively.

Fletcher is better defensively but as we’ve seen the Angels can’t really afford to give up anything offensively right now. 

Also, the Angels have waaaaaaaay more information than any of you and this is the decision they made. They’re trying to win. They aren’t always right but they always always always always make the decision with more info than you or I have.

Both will play. If one separates himself, he’ll play more. 

This is not an issue you should be worked up about. 

You're right, Billy is our daddy and he knows best, we're stupid for questioning.

I'm not taking that BS.  Anyone who can't see the difference between Fletcher and La Stella's approach to the game has probably spent too much time with their head in a computer.  Even if I grant you that La Stella and Fletcher are even with the bat, Fletcher has defense that is far above average and brings an energy to the lineup by the way he plays the game.  He gets the little things right- Like putting the ball in play when the tying run is on instead of going down looking.... (La Stella) 

But all we can do is wait for Fletcher to prove he's more valuable just like he did with Valbuena.  

It's annoying because Fletcher deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt over this piece of work who threw a fit for being sent to AAA with the cubs. I'd release his ass without a second hearing.  What kind of message are sending if that's tolerable?

Sidenote...how are people not realizing that the stats of a pinch hitter cannot be compared to someone starting every day? La Stella's hitting statistics are mostly as a pinch hitter.  If we expect him to maintain those with 4 at bats a game.. we're fools.  

Fletcher can easily be an every day second baseman that puts up a .285 BA with 15 steals and above average defense. Why are we writing him off as a bench player. La Stella is a joke. Doesn’t deserve playing time. The OBP argument is absurd. The idea that Fletch peaked at .316 OBP is ridiculous. If that’s our logic Taylor Ward will never start based on his first call up OBP. Fletch is a good contact singles-doubles hitter. La Stella is below average defense with a bat that’s equal or worse than Fletch’s.

 Fletch needs to be starting. Heck I’d start him over Cozart.

17 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Fletcher doesn't have the track record. His bat doesn't really play without trusting in his elite (small sample size) defensive metrics, and I would go as far as saying it's a stretch to think Fletchers defense is a step ahead of Cozarts.

I mean Cozart used to be a gold Glover but his defense at 3rd has been mediocre. Fletch played really well taking over third last year. Bat wise fletcher brings zero pop, but hitting .275 in your first 300 PAs with 18 doubles is not too shabby. I think he can play as a great 9 or lead off guy depending on Kole. Better .300 and 5 homers than .220 and 12 homers and that seems to be the options. But you’re right it’s small sample size too. A lot of unknowns 

8 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The point is they apparently don’t see Fletcher as an everyday player. 

What gives you that idea other than Fletch bouncing around in ST? Id be surprised if he didn’t start 5 outta every 6 games given his performance last year. His defense is head and shoulders above Cozart and La Stella at both second and third.