floplag

Well, unlike yourself, I don't seem to have information that hasn't been made public.  It's true, none of the players publicly broadcast their actions but only one of them tried to pay to keep information from MLB by purchasing information and the sort.  Arod was a very active participant in this.

The payroll relief is a by-product of the situation, not the reason why it happened.

Why does every post you make start with sarcasm and insults...  

In any event the by product is significant in this case.. moreso than the crime in my opinion.  I'm sure that means nothing to you but im still entitled to it so, whatever.

What i do not and will not understand is the relief to the team.  They benefited from his actions... i do not believe they were ignorant of them, and not they get everything they could possibly want from its outcome.  

The implication here is that the teams have no reason whatever to even try to stop the problem...   they get all the benefits of the players performance when they break the rules, and get to throw them away when they get caught and benefit twice

They could have banned him for life for some of the other BS he did to try to cover up his misdeeds.  This wasn't just about the steroid issue.

People are upset that the Yankees may get off the hook to a degree -- but there is no way on Earth that either the players union or the owners will ever agree to any future bargaining agreement where a player's deeds will be held against the team from a finances standpoiint.   Players will not agree to anything that could limit their potential earnings while owners will not want to take on further risks due to degenerate players.

 

Arod is a unique case only because he is owed so much money and is such a massive egomaniac.

I disagree... the money does not make he actions unique, they all covered up their deeds or tried to.  Regardless of that the payroll releif is ludicrous.

Its just another example of saving a team from its own stupidity... do they have to give back the titles won by his roid use?  do they have to pay back the fans? 

Once again the league is putting ALL the responsibility of the roid era on the players and ignoring their own duplicity.. its absurd.

He's not, and the arbitrator agreed.

so every team that had a guy suspended got payroll relief?

noone else has been suspended for a season yet even on multiple offenses

the arbitrator can say what he will, the facts dont support it

i dont like the guy, but this is bullshit that he is being held to separate rules than others and that the Yankees are getting a giant break from it.

whatever he would have cost them should still count to the cap... i dont get that part of this at all

oh for Christs sake i hope those on this board that constantly bring this shit up are innocent of transgression... though i am betting they are not.

Besides, you think the average female fan knows a friggin thing about these guys off the field? 

Tanaka's people said they want big market teams ready to win now, reportedly naming Dodgers, Boston, and Yankees as preferred destinations.

Yankees are ready to win but we aren't... makes sense, lol

I didn't think about it that way.

yes i know it was a joke.. sorta.

Would the differences between the National and American leagues make a difference?  Does Tanaka want to swing a bat?

dont know but facing 8 batters over 9 is appealing, lol

i'm still betting Seattle..,

I actually I wouldn't have voted for Biggio under any circumstances. I didn't vote for him last year when I had 3 empty spots.

 

I have nothing bad to say about the guy, but to me his case is based more on longevity than dominance, and I prefer the latter. Nothing wrong with being in the top 2 percent of players in major league history instead of the top 1 percent.

Very true... i only mention Biggio as im reading from a lot of writers how if they had more votes he would have made it.. or certainly implying as much.

with the big contract comes big expectations and pressure... you accept that when you sign on the line.

I dont think any will be on Ibanez for example.. but if Pujols and Hamilton dont deliver we have no chance so yes, it will be, and should be, on them

The biggest problem i see is most of them are still years away.  Too many As and Rs in that list

OK im done.. ive listed the stats i base my opinion on and why.. ive listed what i think its doing to the game.. clearly im in the minority, im fine with that.

When a thread is degraded to insults and the "lol" posts now without any real discussion its no longer worth the time.. please feel free to lock it or delete it.

Which metrics are those?  The ones that argue that he wasn't as bad defensively as people making "obserbvations" were trying to say he was or the ones that show him to be the greatest hitting catcher in the history of the game?

 

I mean, you really can't be serious.

all the scouts that told lasorda not to draft him... dont beleive me, look it up yourself... or dont i dont care lasorda himself said it on the show.  Lasorda took him anyway based on his opinion and perception.

First of all a homerun in the first is just as valuable as a homerun in the 9th. All runs scored count the same. 9th inning runs don't get a triple word score or anything. Yes they FEEL more important to fans and players because they come at the end. As an Angel fan you should also know that wins in April are just as important as wins in September, even if they feel different. 

 

Now some people do find this sort of thing interesting, to the point that they invented a stat specifically to measure it - it's called Win Probability Added. It gives all those bonus points you love at the end of games and measures that thing we call 'clutch.' While those extra high leverage late innings do give Morris an extra edge not seen when looking at WAR they still fall short of Finley.

 

Finley was flat out a better pitcher than Morris is just about everything other than complete games. I know you are arguing against the use of facts in favor of using your gut feeling to evaluate performance but at some point we simply have to call this debate for what it is, and that is something comparable to a seriously sick person refusing to see a doctor for religious 'reasons.'

i love how ive listed facts and stats to support my view, and yet you say i am somehow against them becasue i reach a different conclusion... funny

In my opinion the idea that all innings are created equal, or that a win in April is as important as a win in October, is simply not true.  It is true that noone ever won a pennant in April... though we have certainly lost a chance to in a few.  I get that, but again, statistically these things are measured equally for the most part, you dont get 1.5 games credit for a win in Oct, but the mentality is completely different in those circumstances, it is much harder late in games than it is early.  If you cant understand that then you either never played the game or somehow think the human body performs as well when its tired as it does when its fresh.  I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Just to clarify one point.. i dont think Morris is a great as Maddux, or Glavine, or many other guys in the hall...  but there are degrees of greatness and degrees of fame.. not every one in the hall is as worthy as Ruth, that doesnt detract from what they did accomplish to be on a lesser tier of fame.

Long before there was anything known as advanced statistical analysis, "the mold" was ever changing. The type of player that contributed in one era might not be the type of player that contributes in another. Guys like Mark Belanger, John Roseboro, and Dal Maxvill wouldn't get a shot today but Orioles, Dodgers, and Cardinals fans knew what it was like to win a title with them. 

very true coach.. i just saw a bit on Piazza on MLB where Lasorda was quoted as being told by everyone that scouted him that he couldnt do anything... we all know the history.. but again using today's metrics etc.. Piazza never gets a chance today.

So, if two pitchers have overlapping careers in the same league for nine years, they're not comparable?

 

Just because they are two different types of pitchers, they can still be compared.

That is not what i said.. what i said is that i do not consider them the same caliber of pitcher. 

Statistically close, yes. But again it comes down to perception, observation, and all that other stuff that doesn't show up on a stat sheet and isnt part of fangraphs or baseball reference.  You know, the real world.

Clearly many of you are fine with the giant game of strat-o-matic... thats fine, you are entitled to that, as i am entitled to disagree.  You keep reading the box score, ill watch the games. 

Erstad was a #1 draft pick, He is also 5th all time in Angels franchise history in career WAR. His 2000 season was the best season in franchise history before Mike Trout came along, according to WAR. David Eckstein's 2002 season is ranked 23rd...

and both are now "grit" punchlines on this board on a virtual daily basis...

No, Finley compares favorably due to giving up a similar, albeit less, number of runs in a higher run scoring environment than Morris.

 

Both players lead the league in CG's once, with Morris finishing in the top 10 ten times to Finley's five. WAR gives Morris credit for those innings, yet he still finishes 15 wins shy of Finley in that metric, that I am also aware that you don't care about. 

Just as you dont care that many more of Morris innnings came late in games... you value each inning the same, i dont. 

... and dont even play the wins card please.. just, dont. 

Of what is out there i agree with the premise, i cant help but feel a bit off deja-vu as its kinda what we did last years was go with a bag of peanuts and it didnt work out so well

Im not high on Tanaka or Garza if the price gets up where most think it will.. i do see the return on investment.

Im not high on any of the lesser tiered guys as there is a probability that there would be no return on any investment ala Blanton.

In my opinion we must get a true #3... thats what we need.  but we also dont need to pay ace money to get it.

I still think the best option is via trade, but thats just my opinion and would of course also depend on the trade parameters so thats purely theoretical.

Actually, I wasn't even looking at the Ks. The first stat I looked at was ERA.

 

And don't give me the "he pitched to the score" argument. That has been disproven in another thread.

I never made that argument... though whether or not it has been disproven is debatable.. but also moot.

I dont think Morris and Finley are comparable pitchers at all... just because they had a similar ERA does not make them the same type of guy.. you do realize that, right?

there have always been players playing only for themselves and their own personal gain. 

 

However, By and large, most of the players play the game to win. 

 

while I undertand your theory that you have to take context into account relative to the era that a player played, I totally disagree that the evolution of the game and where we are now has ruined it. 

 

But if historical context need be applied, then let's fire up the flux capacitor.

 

Morris first year of HOF vote eligibility was 2000 and for the first 5 years or so, he hovered around 20%.  Then the next five years, he bumped to about 40% max and it wasn't until the last couple of years that he bumped into the 50's/60's.  In the meantime, he's been promoting his own cause.  The voters that were a lot closer to the era in which he pitched actually gave him far fewer votes than he has gotten recently.  The fans and members of the BBWA weren't looking at Morris' WAR back in 2000. 

 

They didn't find him worthy then, and he wasn't considered worthy now.  Why?  He's not a hall of fame caliber pitcher. 

opinion is not fact, but if you wanna fire that up then lets include that context... HoF voters from 2000ish to now have been extremely tight on the votes when deserving candidates were on the ballot that did eventually make it

im not going to go year by years but there was never more than 2 since then and by your logic why did Rice and Blyleven eventually make it? 

It isnt as cut and dry as you portray it, unless of course all you do it look at the numbers

I respect your opinion but do you see why your whole "complete game" argument is hypocritical? CG is a "quantifiable stat", as you put it, and so are shutouts. These are good stats, but as many others have already stated, they are a product of their era. Look at CG's for pitchers in the early 1900's. Morris doesn't even compare. Just like pitchers of today don't compare to Morris in that regard. You say that this is because pitchers only care about their own stats but you are completely neglecting the fact that IP and CG are important stats on their own. You are just picking CG because it supports your argument and because it is the only stat that does so you are throwing out all other stats and blaming "statheads" for ruining the game.

Also in regards to your "fear" argument, do you think hitters truly feared a finesse guy like Maddux?

you are right.. CG is quantifiable... and its also disappearing. 

As i said in my post Morris did something for what 10 of 11 straight years, that has only been done twice in the last 13 by the rest of the league combined?  Why is that?

And Im not ignoring anything.. im respecting how he pitched,, and what he did.  However, i absolutely do give more credence to 9 innings pitched in a complete game than i do 9 innings over 2 games.. your darned right.  pitching thru those last three innings when you are tired and still getting it done is far more relevant to me than the first 3 of the next game after going 6 in the last.   Its a philosophical difference, but im entitled to that am i not?

Again it comes back to context, and watching the game rather than looking at stat sheets.

Do i think guys feared Maddox.. hell yes i do, wouldn't you have?  If not then why is he there?  i think every guy in theh all was feared by the opposition.,. isn't that part of the mystique?

I think the comparison to Finley is a copout personally.  I loved Finley, but you will never see me argue him for the HoF. 

In about what 75 more total games on the record Morris but 2.5 times the CGs and twice the shutouts... Finley compares statistically due to higher rate of Ks which the stat heads give more weight as a quantifiable thing... i get that, but again, ask the guys they faced which one they feared more for a larger part of the career.

Morris was a guy that for more than a decade, was among the list of guys that opposing hitters feared.  Yes, that makes him one of the best and among the dominant guys.

Again though this isnt JUST about Morris... its about how in my opinion the over abundance of stats and moneyball are hurting the game.. taking away its personality.  turing into a giant game of Strat-o-Matic.  A guy like Erstad or Eckstien would never got a shot today I dont think.. they dont fit the mold.. yet without hem this board never knows what its like to win a title.

I guess thats ok with some of you... it isnt with me, its that simple.  Agree or not thats up to you... ive said my piece.   

I stopped giving flops post any credence when very early on he said that all pitchers care about today are their stats and that they only want to pitch 5 innings because they didn't want their stats affected. That is absolutely ridiculous. Go ahead and tell me that Weaver, Lackey, CJ, hell any guy worth his salt wants to come out after 5 innings. Pitchers today want to go deep into games just like pitchers back in the day. The game has changed but that isn't on the pitcher, that is on organizational philosophy and the trend of the league.

i dont really care if you give my posts credence or not, but if you truly think there are not players more worried about their stats, contracts, and personal gain over the team or anything else you haven't been watching.