floplag

Translation...
The Angels and Dodgers are being used to dive up the price for the Yanks and are not really in the mix, but it looks good on paper to have others involved for negotiations

So you want to see him as overrated, got it.

No.. again, please read the posts before attacking them.

I see him as overrated based on the expected salary. 

IF he could be had for closer to 10 mil than 20 i would be fine with it.. the risk would be worth it.. but at 20 you better get something that is a guarantee, which he is not.

Flop, I have no idea whether he will great or good. Will he be overpaid for his production? Probably, but if he is a 3.5 WAR pitcher and he gets about $20 million, is that much of an overpay, considering his age and the cost of free agent pitching these days?

I also think he has value that no other starter out there has and that's marketability for Arte. I know that doesn't result to wins on the field immediately, but the more revenue the bigger the budget. The bigger the budget the more you can spend on players like Trout.

The very crux of my problem with him is that we have no friggin clue if we will be a 3.5 WAR pitcher or better or worse.. there is no track record at the ML level to support that assumption.

I've read both positive and not so glowing reviews on him.. enough to suggest that assuming you will get what you hope to get is probably a best case scenario, and the worst case could be a lot worse.

Is he "probably" the best out there... yes, i guess so... but that doesnt always make it a great signing.

Some of you deal in too many absolutes... this is not one, no matter how hard you want it to be. 

Again, i have never said i think he will suck, or be a bad pitcher.. only that i think there is reason to believe he could far under perform what he will get paid.. with our roster, can we really afford that?  consider for a moment what it would do to this team is he is more of a #4 or 5, than the #2 you all paint him to be?

Only floplag could see an obviously positive report and turn it into a negative one.

...or may be we all see what we want to see.. as i implied in the post itself.

As we all know im not high on him.. not because i think he will be terrible but because i think he will be drastically over payed for the production.

So... that having been said i find the wording of this assessment a bit bothering... the implication that he would be a "successful" major league pitcher does not imply ace, star, or what does that even mean?  If he truly thought he was going to be a large success i would have expected different wording... maybe its just me but to me i dont find this a ringing endorsement.

Again it isnt that i think he will be bad or anything, just not worth the 20 mil he will probably get paid, or even close.
 

simple fix, trade Trout for whoever the #1 farm is... like all of them, lol

i love the frontrunner Yankees bit.. last week they arent even in it... its all about timing, lol

I think he can definitely be better than Wilson. My guess is he would be slightly worse than Weaver but not by a whole lot.

I'm a little more optimistic on Tanaka than some people though so I may be a little biased. He probably profiles as a good #2, which is right around where Weaver is at this stage in his career.

I am curious what you base that on though as everything ive read from multiple sources project him to be about a 3.5 ERA guy at most... ive not see anything suggesting he would be better than that. 

Assuming that would be accurate that puts him a close and very solid 3 behind Wilson and Weaver in that regard, but still #3. 

Going into the season, he wouldn't be the #1 here but I think there would be a good chance he ends up being the #1 by the end of the year.

im sorry but i can agree... better than Weaver?  if he ended up better than Wilson i would be happily surprised, the projections suggest there is little reason to beleive he would be #1 on our staff other than hope and wishful thinking

yeah not gonna happen... now that the Yankees have that nice extra 20 mil he goes there.. book it...  but hey its good for baseball right? 
/puke

Again I don't necessarily disagree with a majority of what you said. But honestly the Yankess have a clear multi-million dollar interest in having the decision come down as it did. MLB, which knows the Yankees are the bread and butter of the league also have an interest in the Yankees succeeding too. The Yankees drive cash flow everywhere they go and MLB knows that. I just think that some people (not necessarily you Dochalo) are so Arod hateful that they don't want to see the other hypocrisy happening on the other side of the fence.

well said... this in spades

they didn't make an example of him because he wasn't a productive player.  They did it because they caught him and then he spat in their face about it.  There were a bunch of other non-productive or minimally productive players that got caught as well.  They didn't get made examples of.  Arod tried to hide it, block it, and then tried to cover it up.  Then he tried to challenge them.  This is more about dick measuring then going after a guy because he costs a lot. 

Noone is questioning this... but i find the timings all a bit too convenient is all... you can agree or not, but i think you give them too much credit for being better people than they are... i could be wrong, but then again maybe im not, who knows

Damn right they would. Heck, they even now have precedence from the ARod debacle to do so. I'm not buying the "timing" conspiracy. MLB and MLBPA aren't only looking out for themselves, but the other players that are playing by the rules.

i'd like to believe that.. but these are the same men that turned a blind eye for 20 years.. hard to give them credit for being upstanding human beings now

Again im not defending ARod at all... only that the timing is absurd.

and making an example of someone that has fallen from productivity doesnt send a message.. at least not a good one.. wanna impress me make an example out of Cabrera if he got popped for example... but we all know that aint happening

I hate that we have let so many guys just walk recently or dealt them for nothing that would be very useful right now had we kept them...

Haren, Santana, Williams to name a few   None of them aces but would look better in the middle of the rotation that a lot of the names we are throwing around. 

I cant say i understand some of those decisions on a team that was pitching strapped.. isn't like any better deals were found or available.

The one thing i find most troubling is that all this is coming down just as he no longer became useful... anyone think this happens about 5 years ago if hes still putting up numbers?  i dont. 

i admit some surprise at not seeing SEA on the list.. getting him is the only way all the other moves they made make any sense unless they are planning wholesale trades.

Unless they already have something on the table considering their ties to Japan...

Im on record as saying i think he ends up in Sea... ill stand by it till he signs i guess but the situation is evolving for sure.

If this was intended for me then haha. I was basically telling him the exact thing you said but with fewer words. The average fan only cares about performance on the field. Actually I'm not even sure that's true. The average fans wants their team to win that's it. Oh and perhaps not humiliate the fans by being a very bad person.

It wasnt really at anyone.. just the post about this guys life, or this guys dui.. all get a little sanctimonious .. i know some things are sensitive, but i suggest people hold these men to the same standards they hold themselves

Flop,

 

I got zero problem with you.  Zero.   You want to call me out on something, by all means....  Do it.... I won't cry when you..  I expect to be called on things and when I am, I don't feel slighted.  

 

I don't even disagree with you that the Yankees are getting over here.  I just don't think it's a case where it's happening because it's the Yankees..  I do think MLB is making Arod a target, I also believe he's brought that on himself to a certain degree.  Both entities are easy to dislike IMO.

 

The problem lies in MLB's anti-trust exception and how it empowers them to do things.

 

 

Seriously, take it easy.

Then come at me with those points and not the personal shit, im fine with everything you just wrote here... but opening a post with accusing me of assuming some inside knowledge is not what you just wrote here,  nuff said

As far as the points here i dont disagree with any of them, save for maybe i think they are helping the Yanks a bit more than they would say the Royals or even us in a similar place as the league most valuable franchise.

I could acre less what happens to ARod.. he used, he liad, he absolutely did bring this on himself.  But the league bailing out the Yankees at the time they need it the most, and once ARod is no longer living up to hat contract, is too convenient for me to assume coincidence.   Perhaps im a bit of a conspiracy theorist.. or perhaps i just dont believe in coincidence.. but the timing of this and the parties involved are all a little too suspect

Physician heal thyself....      You're the one titling at windmills.    

 

Stating things in earnest is one thing, pretending to have some insight that doesn't exist is another.   If you can't see the difference, there really is no point in trying to reach any sort of common ground.  If anything I went out of my way to point out I was basing my views on what we can prove.   

 

Take it easy.

 

lol... how does stating something as an opinion pretend to have insight?  i never claimed any special knowledge.. i virtually always post things as my opinion and why i feel the way i do.  

I guess it makes it easier to be a jerk if you project onto others your own actions.  Disagree with me.. fine, im totally cool with that, but being a jerk about it, nah.  You wanna call me out for having a different opinion that's your right, no problem with it. but being an ass about it is going to get you called back

The funny part is other people say the same things in threads that i do and you say nothing... selective aggression i guess, lol. 

you know what, nevermind.. i dont care enough to bother anymore.. feel free to skip my posts.. i tried to be nice about it.. im pretty much done with it. 

Different views are rapidly starting to get suppressed on this board... im sure if i had the same views as you id get nothing but respect... im kinda glad i dont. 

It would be nice if those people that "like" my posts would perhaps back me up a little rather than letting the opinion police run rampant though... but i do appreciated seeing the little bells

what moral high ground?  mlb and mlbpa agreed to a process relative to PEDs and conduct detrimental to the league.  Prior transgressions before this process was established are not applicable.  Both parties agree to move forward with the past being the past. 

 

The Yankees benefit from this is irrelevant as it should have not bearing on the process.  Again, the arbitrator is a neutral party and should not take into account whether the players team benefits or not.  This person does not work for mlb or mlbpa. 

 

If you think the system should be changed so that there is some sort of condition where the team could not benefit from this then you would also have to make it so the team could not be hurt by it.  What if the net result neither benefited nor hurt the team.  Then what?  You can't set up the process to account for the entire blast radius in every situation.

They are portraying themselves as completely ignorant on the steroid issue.. acting like they knew nothing and it was ll the evil players that did this to the game.  In my opinion this is laughable.

MLB and the writers had to know what was going on... there is simply no way they could have been 100

% ignorant on this long before congress got involved as far as im concerned... just no way. 

I cant prove it.. its just my opinion.. but when employers at virtually all level are keeping closer eyes on people they pay today and knowing that these teams have watched players for many years off the field.  My high school gave players stuff to get on the field, pro sports have used roids and serious drugs since the 70s or sooner... its simply illogical to assume they knew nothing and let them throw these guys away without taking any responsibility fo it.

Christ they encouraged it.. chicks dig the long ball etc... it saved the game in all likelyhood.  and they expect us to think they knew absolutely nothing?  really?

I dont expect them to fall on the grande for these guys, but i do expect them to not pretend they were ignorant and hold themselves accountable or at least to the same standard they are asking the players to be held to.

This ruling does motivate teams to look away from players abusing steroids, but to keep notes on it so that they can throw them under the bus at a later point when the player is overpaid and unproductive.

This is the implication that i find troubling. 

No reason to stop it, every reason to build evidence and toss the guy aside when he becomes unproductive and not living up to the contract as the Yankees have precisely done in this case. 

I notice this didn't happen when he was still among the best 3B in the league.

This smells worse then the roid issue itself as far as im concerned.

Why do you feel insulted?   You made a statement you cannot back up unless you have some insight into the process the rest of the world doesn't have.  Is calling you on it an insult?   Maybe you should consider how insulting it is for you to pretend to you know something the rest of us don't.  

Nor can you back up your view with any certainty as neither one of us is in those rooms i'm fairly sure... but it certainly doesn't stop you from voicing your views in earnest and assuming to be in the right.

How about just saving the attitude?  ill happily do the same. 

I can agree with that. I'm no ARod fan, I just feel like there is a lot more going on here than a piece of shit getting what he deserves.

My argument here has nothing to do with whats being done to him... but how baseball is trying to claim the moral high ground and how the Yankees are trying to benefit from the situation.

Ultimately, I don't think we know everything that's happened.   And I do believe it's a matter of opinion.   When it's all said and done, MLB gets to decide what it's willing to put up with and where it draws the line.  I think with Arod there was just so much history that they finally got sick of it and acted.  Keep in mind Arod had been tied to illegal gambling at one point and he's been proven to have lied publicly about his steroid use.  For all his talk about not having failed any drug tests ever, he has fully admitted to having used for at least 2-3 years..  That pretty much makes his talking up his never having failed a test as nothing other than a ploy..

To be honest, I think the ONLY reason they didn't ban him for life was to be kind to what little legacy he has left.  Arod being Arod chose to fight it and IMO he's simply digging himself a bigger hole.

true.. but dont thee decisions have to have some logic to them?  again im not defending ARod.. im bashing baseball and ownership for trying to have the cake and eat it to.  the actions against ARod are correct, but the benefits to the Yankees are out of line.

Baseball is covering its own ass over the entirety of the roid issue... there is no way you or them could ever convince me that they were not fully aware of what was going on.  if they were then they were incompetent as any businessman would know these things about those around him, especially the high profile ones they are putting up as the face of the franchise

Baseball and the writers have planted a flag on he morale high ground and thrown the players under the bus rather than accepting even partial responsibility... so again either they were duplicitous or they were incompetent.. either way it say little about them.

Yes, that is my opinion... No, i dont know it to be fact... but i know employers keep an eye oin such things in the real world.. baseball teams invest millions in these players, do they truly think we are fool enough to believe they knew nothing?

...and now.. they get to benefit from it all over again.  where is the logic in this?  if this makes any sense the the only word i can think of is naive