TNAngelsFan71

Percival as the pitching coach? That would bring some grit to the staff. Would still like to see Salmon as a coach not just a spring training instructor. Nostalgia? Yeah, but I think they have a lot to offer as coaches.

34 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Bumgarner also has about 800 more innings on that arm than Cole, despite the year difference in age.

I look at him and see Felix Hernandez or Jered Weaver. Not saying he’ll fall off a cliff, but for the money he’ll make, I don’t think he’s the type of risk the Angels need to make for the second arm. 

I also just don’t see much compelling reason for him to be interested in the Angels. He has rings already, so I imagine at this point it will be going where he will either be most comfortable (San Fran or closer to home, such as Atlanta), somewhere where he can continue his legacy, such as San Fran or NYY, or somewhere where he can continue to rack up as many rings as possible - the Angels don’t scream that right now, more the Astros, or somewhere where he can be the top dog and lead a staff or be the wise mentor, such as again, Atlanta. If he winds up the Angels #1 signee, sure, he fits the bill here, but I don’t know that he’s anyone’s first or second, maybe even third, choice for our big #1 signee. And before some wiseass says something about there being 100 million compelling reasons, pretty much any other contender can offer that too, without having to worry about needing to also bring in two other arms. 

Just don’t see a fit. I see a lot of things still likable about him and appealing, but he doesn’t strike me as being in the mix.

I also see Atlanta as a good fit for him if SF doesn't make him a career Giant. I just think he may be someone to keep an eye on if his market is slow.  Cole is obviously the first choice and the best fit for the Angels pitching wise in a long while. It's been nice to have a bit of a debate on this with both sides having some compelling views and it not becoming a group snark fest. 

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

Have to point out also that Bumgarner benefitted from a lot of good pitching environments in the NL West too. He’s good, no doubt, but he’s taken a step back the last couple seasons vs. his run prior.

I would still have to take him at his step back level... 1.13WHIP..... Cole has a .89WHIP and he could/should be the AL CY Young award winner this year.

As a side note... Cole did not face the Astros beast of a lineup where Bumgarner faced the dodgers multiple times I believe. 

I may be willing to pay a bit more for him if he can pass on some grit to these kids the Angels have on the edges of the Show.

6 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Bumgarner is just one year older than Cole. He’s not old and declining. He had an injury that he pitched through and once recovered he pitched as well as anyone for the months of June, July, and August.

He isn’t Cole or Strasburg, but he’s definitely #3. And if they get Cole for 30ish M, and can get Bumgarner for around 20M, and add Grandal for 16.... yes that’s $66 M to go with the 120 in contracts and 20 in arb, but a little creative bookkeeping in years one and two and they can get this team... is it enough?

 

You posted that as I was typing mine out. lol

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

For Hamels, something comparable to Morton’s 2/$30m seems like a close comp, without any options. If he’s really committed to just doing one more season back in SoCal for a final run, maybe something as high as 1/$20m or as low as 1/$10m. Really depends on demand and his level of interest in playing back home. He’s also said he enjoys the NL Central. I think something more along a $12m-15m AAV is more appropriate though.

I can’t recall if he’s QO eligible, but I could also see the Cubs also extending that to him and him accepting as well. 

Bumgarner’s a little trickier. I think he can start around 4/$80m-$100m pretty easily, maybe 5 years, minimum, if Eovaldi can get 4/$68. He and Ryu both feel like a reasonable ’consolation prize’-types for whichever major contender fails to sign Cole or Strasburg. A potential ace for half the commit that helps them in the playoff battles right off the bat.

I could be way off base here but I think Bumgarner may get under valued this off season. He may get a 4 -5 year deal (4 more likely than 5). I think clubs will look at 6 or so pitchers before him. He is only a year older than Cole and after a 4 year deal would still be a year younger than Hammels is now and his WHIP of 1.13 and K/BB 4.72 and 207.2 IP are still really solid. 

9 minutes ago, totdprods said:

A declining Weaver was pretty good at 31, then very not good at 32 and 33. 

Different pitchers, yes, but Bumgarner’s risks don’t feel like the right gamble for this club right now. Hamels on a 1-2 year deal would be cheaper though less commitment and hopefully comparable production. He’d be my choice for a second arm behind Cole or Strasburg if we really wanted to make a statement with a second signing - and I’d still want to see a third arm brought in via trade. 
 

Bumgarner’s age is almost sure to net him 4 years...

So what is your projection for Yrs/$$$ for Bumgarner and Hamels?

2 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Next year has a really nice SP FA crop as well. I don’t want us to overcommit and get a potentially declining Bumgarner or an unreasonably priced Wheeler or a possibly overrated Odorizzi this offseason as our second arm of it costs us a chance at someone like Ray, Stroman, Tanaka, or Minor next offseason. 

It’s why I still like the trade option for a second arm, with secondary free agent dollars going to cheap vet SPs, another high lev bullpen arm, or offensive help not named Grandal. 

A declining Bumgarner was still pretty good last year.... possible to get him  on 2-3 year deal ?

Assuming the Angels want to go big after signing Maddon …. What do you think it would cost for Cole and MadBum? Could we spend some prospect resources to get a SP by trade as well and really have a killer rotation?

7 minutes ago, Dick B Back said:

I agree.

I second that.

We need starters that are not afraid to attack the strike zone. Every one of our starters seemed to nibble especially once ahead in the count. Is that a reflection of the pitching coach? the philosophy as put forth by Eppler / Ausmus? or just pitchers not being allowed to trust their stuff and seeing what happens? I miss the attitude pitchers like Percival had of here's my best pitch … hit it if you can.... if you do I tip my cap, if you don't go have a seat.

I would love to see the following happen...

Sign Cole ---- 212.1 IP 13.82 K/9 best fit I have seen for this club pitching wise in a long time.

Sign MadBum ---- 207.2 IP 8.80 K/9  the man is a bulldog and will hopefully be able to pass some of that on to the kids.

Trade for Ray---- 174.1 IP 12.13 K/9 (Trade some combination of our infield depth and MiLB pitching or Barria / Suarez)

Ohtani ---- expect 100 IP 10.97 K/9 in 2018

Heaney ---- 180 IP in 2018 11.14 K/9 

Canning ---- expect 100 IP 9.56 K/9 (I expect him to take a step forward this season... he was looking really good till Skaggs passing)

and sign Grandal  to fill the void at catcher.

3 hours ago, True Grich said:

 A little birdie told me that Trout is going to be the starting CF next season.  Book it.  You heard it here first.

Maybe Upton stubs his toe again and Walsh bats .450 and they move Trout to left. I've seen stranger things happen with this club.

34 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

I'd like to see the Angels this year raise their internal budget of $175M to around $190. Let Trout have some fun.

I would like to see this same graphic with a side by side of the angels opening day and end of season payrolls for comparison if anyone out there has that info.

Here is my hope for the rotation. Sign Cole (best fit for us on the market in years), Yes he will be pricey. Sign MadBum (the man is a bulldog and can teach that to our young pitchers). Yes he will be pricey as well. Make a trade for Ray (it will cost some of our depth but I would not touch Adell or Marsh. I expect we could see both Adell and Marsh up and productive by midseason.). That would give us a rotation of Cole, MadBum, Ohtani, Ray, Heaney, and the kids (Canning, Sandoval, etc). That rotation would compete with any team in the league. I also would say we need to pony up Arte's money and pay for Grandal.

Just now, Kevinb said:

But Goodwin is under control for a while and is cheap and good. How is that not in the long term plans? And how does trading Calhoun Goodwin Lucroy help us win this year? That seems more like a move for long term rather than winning this year. 

I think the OF prospects we have coming up fairly quickly will out perform Goodwin in short order. Calhoun (while I love his play) is almost assuredly not having his 14M option picked up and Lucroy is not in the plan beyond this season.  If we can acquire virtually any SP with control beyond this year that can win 4-5 starts from here on out is a huge addition to winning this year and beyond.

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

You could sell guys like Kole, Lucroy, Cam, Robles for prospects.  And trade prospects for cost controlled pitching that will be here beyond this year. 

I see we are thinking along the same lines here. lol

Just now, Kevinb said:

How do you do both? How do you sell off assets who will help you win games and buy assets who will help you win games. Seems counter productive. 

You sell off the assets that are not in the long term plans.... Lucroy, Goodwin, some of the AAA middle IF depth, possibly Calhoun ( kind of hesitant on this one)…. and target players that can help both short and long term by either being controllable beyond this season or by being added to the pot to go after the SP we need so desperately. I would have zero issues trading Goodwin and Lucroy to get a player that can be added to a deal to get Ray/Greinke, Boyd, etc. 

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

@Second Base Have you consider optimism?

I know the Angels are not necessarily as good as the defending World Champion Boston Red Sox, but in a one game playoff, who knows. They can compete. I said they needed two starters before Skaggs' untimely passing (#RIP45) but I think they're going to have to make do with one or two, not three and have to hope that Harvey pitches well.

A rotation of #1 Starter Acquisition, #2 Ohtani, #3 FA Starter/Harvey/Midlevel Guy., #4 Heaney, #5 Canning, #6 Suarez/Pena/Barria/Sandoval/Farmhand TBD is a lot better than relying on the farm to fill out a rotation. I've pretty much given up on Tropeano, Bridwell, and JC Ramirez TBH.

And I like Gerritt Cole Since he transformed in Houston, but there will be a lot of competition for his services.

If they acquire a guy who is controllable for 2-3 more seasons after this one, it would be a boon to this year and next. If they get a rental, they'd be forced to try and bring him back and/or get a guy like Cole, and/or resign Harvey.

My picks are the same as they were a month ago. Madison Bumgarner and Zack Greinke.

Packages for either guy aren't going to be elite top prospects because Bumgarner isn't quite the guy he used to be, but at 29 is still salvageable. Greinke is 35, is owed over $75M and has a 15 team no trade clause.

It's gonna take a decent prospect, and a few lower tier guys. Similar to the Yu Darvish trade. A guy at the bottom of the top 100, (Willie Calhoun), and two lower tier guys should get it done. Darvish was also pitching better than Bumgarner. If they added in Lefty Will Smith, it would be a similar haul, maybe a bit better than the package the Rangers received for Darvish.

So, say: Jordyn Adams or Marsh (as thy both rank in the 90's) or Suarez plus Luis Garcia & two guys in the 20-40 prospect range for Bumgarner AND SMITH.

For Greinke the haul may have to include some salary offset, mainly Trevor Cahill. I'd expect Arizona to eat some money if they want a prospect better than say Barria as the centerpiece of the trade. Say they eat the deferred money, then you probably part with Barria and a guy like Jones. Maybe a guy like Taylor Ward too. If Thaiss is gonna be at 3rd, along with All Star 30 year old LaStella, and Rengifo plus Fletcher, I don't know where they all play. Thaiss being a left 1st and 3rd guy helps significantly, but there is a lot of depth to part with.

But you'd be getting two of the best pitchers in Greinke, and Bumgarner, plus a solid reliever in Smith.

Yes you'd be taking on some serious salary for 2019.

 

 

I have seen much worse Angel rotations than what a Greinke, Otani, Bumgarner, Heaney, Canning, Suarez rotation would look like. 

31 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I'd love to add Robbie Ray, but I don't think the Angels match up well with Arizona, and doubt they'll want to pay his sky-high price since he's only controllable one more year.

Will we need him after that year of control? With the young arms we have coming up that should(could) be ready for the 2021 season would we need that level of pitching per cost or be better served then to have the kids step in. Would Az go for a A+ level package that would give them more depth with good upside?  

4 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Maybe Ray is ready to turn a corner, but he would frustrate us for the most part.  Averages about 5.5 innings per start this year and for his entire career.  

I see something in his stuff/starts that tells me there is more still to come with the right coaching. Based on this years staff I would be fairly happy with 5.5 good innings per start. 

It looks like the market may be heating up for Robbie Ray. How well do we match up with the D-Backs on this? We have a history of working well with this organization on trades anything else we could pair up with it?

Not that I think this is either the way to go or the best choice and I really don't want to give up a pick especially to Houston, but... at what dollar amount and time frame would an offer to Keuchel be something the Angels would pull the trigger on? He has a history of eating innings which it seems we have a full buffet of now and he has a history with our new pitching coach. Is there a value play to be had here?

15 minutes ago, Lou said:

Aroldis Chapman 

I think the A's did it with Ricky Henderson as well back in the 80's - 90's. 

McCutchen 2/24M -- use Calhoun as 4th OF and platoon at 1B/Pujols

Donaldson 1/15M -- Cozart/ Fletcher are 2B and Util... let Ward get the time in AAA and use as needed.

Maldonado 2/8M -- Go after Realmuto when he hits FA in 2 yrs.

Kikuchi 6/42M 

Richards 1/at league min w/player option at 10M

Kikuchi/Heaney/Skaggs/Barria/Canning -- nontender Shoemaker, Bedrosian and Tropeano (saves estimated 7.4M arb costs)

so AAV's of  12 + 15 + 4 + 7 = 38 M - 7.4 = 30.6M

1. McCutchen - RF

2. Trout - CF

3. Otani - DH

4. Donaldson - 3B

5. Upton - LF

6. Simmons - SS

7. Pujols/Calhoun -1B

8. Cozart/Fletcher - 2B

9. Maldonado - C

41 minutes ago, vladdy#27 said:

I like McCutchen, he would benefit in having Trout hitting behind him, and Trout would have somebody that can get on base in front of him. Obviously it would require trading Calhoun. A 2 year deal would be ideal because that will be around the time Adell will be ready for regular playing time, but he can likely get a 3-4 year deal for 15M/yr. With Upton and Ohtani also in the mix I don't think that would work, unless someone learns to play first base

I agree on McCutchen... at the right price... he would loose a bit on the HR side playing in Anaheim but batting in front of Trout will get him nice pitches to hit. Use Calhoun as the 4th outfielder and lefty option at 1B to spell Pujols this last year of his contract and next year one (or more) of the kids will be ready for the role.