Toby Ziegler

A guy lobbying to be Zach's agent gave my dad an old scouting report of Zach from when he was in college by a scout named C. Heidt. Here are the contents of the scouting report, word-for-word:

Hitting Ability: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Compact stroke w/ plus bat spd. Drives ball to all fields.

Power: Present: 4/Future: 6 - Tremendous strength & quickness generates impressive LD pwr.

Running Speed: Present: 4/Future: 4 - 6.65 60 indicates plus run, but big hacks limit time to 1B.

Base Running: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Must improve run tech, but agg play leads to stolen bases.
Arm Strength: Present: 5/Future: 5 - Solid zip & on-line carry.

Arm Accuracy: Present: 4/Future: 5 - On target w/ most throws

Fielding: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Ath enuf to make adjs, needs pro instruction to see results.

Range: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Must harness plus foot spd.

Baseball Instinct: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Games don't come ez, but intense worker will make adjs.

Aggressiveness: Present: 6/Future: 6 - Competes on every play w/ bull in China shop approach

Physical Description: Lg frame. Strong, durable build. Broad shoulders w/ defined chest. Trim waist w/ powerful lower half. Impressive physical strength. Sim to a stronger version of former ML, Hank Blalock.

Abilities: Compact stroke w/ blur-like bat spd. Centers ball w/ LD thunder, can yank balls & flick them out of yard. Tools to play 3B w/ avg arm & soft hands. Plus str line spd. Good ath. Intense competitor.

Weaknesses: Doesn't trust hands enuf, must allow pitch to run deeper & let bat spd take over. New to CF pos, fish out of water approach.

Summation: LH col bat w/ juice. Coach has moved him to CF, but I believe best suited for his previous pos, 3B. Best bat spd in my area and also has easiest pwr. Gut feel plyr who will thrive in pro BB. Plus make-up.

You're his brother, so I'll just leave it at this, you're incorrect but it's understandable because you're bias.  That much is so easy to forgive, it's even expected.  But earlier you said you aren't delusional, I think you just proved yourself wrong.  I'll do my best not to be goated into an argument here because I know where you take it every time, but you're just so far off in your judgement of others and willingness to listen that it's prevented you from anything comprehensible.  

Come on, dude. You're the one who is trying to goad (not goat) me into an argument!

You brought up Nava again, and I've already explained my position on that comp. You also keep giving Zach the backhanded compliment that he plays above his skill set.

I've brought up legitimate points about Cron and Grichuk in other threads, which you subsequently ignored. Evidently, I'm not the only one who is unwilling to listen.

I recognize that I'm biased. How can I possibly deny it? That doesn't mean everything I say should be so easily dismissed. It's a nice card to play, though.

Is it really so farfetched to say that Zach has the most power in the farm system and that his hit tool has also become a plus tool?

Nava is extremely applicable given the situation.  Any minor leaguer, particularly Zach would have to consider it a success if he carves out a full-time role on a playoff caliber team and succeeds in that role.  He's one of those players who's performance is above his tools, and I love that type of player.  Looking at Zach right now, he's that type of player. 

He does not play above his tools; he has nice tools. I believe he has the best power tool in the farm system. His hit tool has come a long way this year. He has above average speed.

Look man, I appreciate what you're trying to do here. But it's not a flattering comparison when you also said that Nava is his ceiling. That's where I'm coming from. Why don't you reserve judgment and let him keep playing before you determine how good he can be?

Toby, I am not trying to start an argument with this question, but I am curious. Since Nava, in your mind, is not a fair comparison to your brother, who in your mind would be his ceiling in the majors? What (who) do you think his floor is in the majors?

I really couldn't say. But I know his ceiling is much higher than Nava's.

Just a social experiment to see what happens.  Toby, Mike Trout is a better baseball player than your brother. 

Mike Trout is the best all-around player in the game and a generational talent. I'm not delusional.

Maybe so, but sarcasm... kind of hard to pick up on the internet.

a part of me hopes that Zach sucks ass

That's not a misquote.

I apologized in all that mess I had deleted before. But I apologize for hoping your brother got traded and sucked. But you REALLY need to change your approach or you won't last.

Duly noted.

Get off of your high horse Zach. You call us petty when you wished cancer on me and my family. I will change my approach with this entire situation. I once said I hope he was traded and failed. Now I want him to succeed like Trout, then be so embarrassed by your actions here and disowns you.

I'll post it again here. I just apologized to you for that in the other thread.

I admit I shouldn't have said I wanted a malignant tumor to metastasize in your system. That was also in poor taste. But in my defense, you were the one who made it personal. I do apologize for taking it too far, though.

I believe you also owe me an apology.

Pot meet kettle.

I admit I shouldn't have said I wanted a malignant tumor to metastasize in your system. That was also in poor taste. But in my defense, you were the one who made it personal. I do apologize for taking it too far, though.

Still, for someone to wish my brother gets AIDS (even if he claims he's being flippant) is just so hateful it's sickening. I can't believe people actually liked that post. Ugh.

Really, how can you guys call yourselves fans when some of you (not most of you, I hope) actively root against one of your best prospects just because I'm persona non grata around here?

I get that you all think I'm this terrible person, but how petty. Definitely raises questions about your fandom. Mark Grace was supposed to be kind of a jerk, but that didn't bother me at all. Growing up, I loved him as a player. And if he happened to have a relative I didn't like, that wouldn't have changed my opinion of him at all. 

Cue more people saying how they hope Zach fails. I would honest to God be embarrassed if fans of my favorite team trashed one of our prospects out of spite.

It'd be nice if someone backed me up on this. I may have gone too far with some of my remarks before, but I'm pretty sure I'm not in the wrong here.

http://www.angelswin-forum.com/forums/topic/3712-zach-borenstein-interview-with-angelswincom/

I'm aware of that thread. I was referring to a thread in general about him. Besides, although I think it's cool that the site interviewed him, that interview thread generated zero discussion.

I thought you were done with this place?

I was, but then I saw he had no thread. Didn't sit well with me.

I hope someone puts AIDS ketchup on his next Double Double

WTF

Extremely poor taste. Not funny at all. Very offensive.

How did you ever become a moderator? And I'm accused of being a troll...

Anyways, back on topic...

89 games .346/.399/.660 (1.060)

23 HRs, 19 doubles, 7 triples, 82 RBIs, 64 runs scored

California League Rankings:

1st in average

1st in slugging

1st in OPS

1st in ISO (.315)

1st in wOBA (.444)

1st in wRC+ (169)

2nd in HRs (only down by 1)

3rd in RBIs

5th in total bases (214)

50th in PAs

Missed time from 6/16 to 7/9

Since he's come off the DL in 24 games:

.430/.505/.791 (1.295)

7 HRs, 6 doubles, 2 triples, 32 RBIs, 22 runs scored, 13 BBs/15 Ks

Apparently that hate isn't just limited to Angels fans or the organization.  The people at Fangraphs never bothered to list him among their top 100 prospects preseason report and then again off their top 50 mid-season report.  He's never been listed among their Fringe Five report either.  Similarly Baseball Prospectus has yet to sing his praises...  

 

Last year, Steve Selsky, Jack Marder, Miles Head all posted OPS figures over 1.000 in the Cal League as 21/22 year olds.  Clearly, everyone hates them too.

 

So many windmills, so little time to tilt at them.

Way to deliberately pick players who have all struggled mightily in AA. I'm sure that isn't a reflection at all of how you feel about Zach and how you're now rooting against him because you dislike me.

Vitriol, derision, insincerity. That's the essence of this forum. The Angels are having a terrible season, and most of you are bitter fans who are showing your true colors.

I've been shit on here because I've taken exception to worse prospects being ranked much higher, the idea that he plays above his skill set (something none of you would say had he been drafted higher like he should have been), if he's lucky he could one day be as good as Daniel Nava-best case scenario, he's too old for his league and therefore a product of the Cal League environment, he has been legitimately treated poorly by the organization (denying it and poking fun at me doesn't make it any less true), and his splits are alarming and raise serious concerns about his ability. That about covers it, though I'm sure I'm leaving out a few things.

Why would I possibly take exception to any of this?

Stay classy, Angels fans.

I don't even know why I bothered.

You're my new favorite poster

My bullshit detector works pretty well, Omar Little.

El oh el

What's so funny?

Since no one else on here ever talks him up and he still doesn't have his own thread...

3-4 with 1 HR, 1 triple, 1 BB, 2 RBIs, 2 runs scored tonight

Game-winning hit in extra innings

Missed nearly a month of the season and is still competing for the Triple Crown and the lead in total bases. The best hitter in the Cal League.

Not bad for the "16th best prospect" in your system.

It's not regional bias it just is what it is. They are a California team you will see California players much more often. It's also just a natter of resource allocation.

The resource allocation needs to be modified. Also going in the book. Contrary to popular belief, there is not a huge disparity of talent between the West Coast, the Midwest, and the East Coast.

I think it had more to do with the fact that he was from New Jersey and not California.

Beane declined to share the reports. I inquired how it was, then, that they ended up with Green -- who is hitting .289 in Triple-A, and who has still not made his major league debut -- and not Trout. Beane's speech accelerated even more. "Grant was a shortstop at a major university, a high profile kid. He was predicted to go ahead of us. We'd seen him a lot more, California kid, seen him since high school. It was a position of need in the organization. We're happy with Grant. I would expect both of them to be the real deal. Just like Leake turned out to be the real deal."

Another glaring example of regional bias from scouts and organizations. Thanks for digging this up. Going in the book.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

ha

I'm done with this board. I'm not saying I'm misunderstood, but to be this maligned is outrageous. Enjoy your top prospects. It will be cause for celebration when Zach is traded just like Segura and Corbin and Skaggs and Chatwood...

I'm just sick of your shit on here. You come on here insult the Angels and their decision making. You act like scouts have no idea what they are doing. If you want your brother to get the respect he deserves in your mind, then have him continue to do what he is doing. You probably should go spend more time on 29 other message boards and insult those teams for not even drafting him. Forgive us all if we don't automatically agree with your position on things, especially when you are only giving your brother these kinds of props. Now if you would have come on here and talked about how great your brother was without shitting on everyone else including people that post on this board then we could have all enjoyed his ride together. We had a players father on here last season named Charles Hall, he was amazing and instantly had all of our respect because he didn't act like a know it all pompous asshole. He spoke respectfully and he seemed grateful. You on the other hand seem like your brother has been wronged. Let's just hope he doesn't have that same outlook on life, because if he does, he will be a miserable person that more than likely won't be as successful as he could have been.

So it's not permitted or socially acceptable to question the Angels' decision making? Check. Nor is it permitted to question scouts' judgment? Check.

I haven't only given my brother props. If you took the time to read some of my posts instead of selectively reading, you would see that I've had nothing but praise for Stamets, Yarbrough, and Snyder. I believe Snyder is also getting screwed over by the organization for not being included in their top 20 prospects and have said as much.

I defend my brother, maybe to a fault, but there you have it. I'm not going to pretend that everything is hunky-dory or be gracious when all I hear from everyone is how great Cron and Grichuk are and how my brother is a few pegs below them when I firmly believe with every fiber of my being that that could not be further from the truth. Yeah, I guess I rub people the wrong way. You especially, evidently. I only say what I believe to be true.

Frazier Hall was one of Zach's teammates last year. I was sad to hear he's out of baseball. However, what does it tell you about an organization when a guy who is out of baseball now started last season ahead of Zach in Cedar Rapids? Yes, don't ever question the Angels' decision-making. Check...mate.