Pitching market

[bloodbrother]

Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick 5m

Hearing teams need to be in 3-year, $30 million range to engage on Scott Feldman. Yes, the price of starting pitching is high.

 

 

is broken

[DMVol]

Never thought this was going to be an easy offseason....the "young, controllable pitching" plan just wasn't likely to happen, at least not with the guys we've put out there as trade chips.....either we overpay for mediocre and hope we guess right this year, unlike last year with Blanton, or break the bank for Tanaka....

[John Shay]

I hope they do break the bank for Tanaka. Seems like the unknown in him is worth the gamble over the known in these FA pitchers.

 

Honestly think it might be worth losing our draft pick again to go after Garza or Santana if we lose out on Tanaka. The window to win with Pujols and Hamilton isn't going to get any bigger.

[bloodbrother]

The Tanaka ship is quickly sailing. Most now assume he won't even be posted

[DMVol]

Honestly think it might be worth losing our draft pick again to go after Garza or Santana if we lose out on Tanaka.

 

No lost draft pick with Garza (traded mid-season)....Santana would cost a pick....

[Inside Pitch]

The Angels had a chance to strike early before the market got stupid.   Grats on reading the market poorly.

[DMVol]

The Angels had a chance to strike early before the market got stupid.   Grats on reading the market poorly.

 

I obviously don't know how things played out behind closed doors but if I could have signed Vargas to a 3 year deal at any point before or during the season, I would have been all over that, never letting him get to FAgency....don't know if he and his agent would have been agreeable to that but, given the dynamics of things---no minor league pitching close to ready in the system, thin available free agent pitching market----I would have tried (maybe we did but I don't think so, no indication we did)....if we could have signed Vargas and passed, we'll pay for it now, overpaying for whatever is out there...

[Inside Pitch]

I obviously don't know how things played out behind closed doors but if I could have signed Vargas to a 3 year deal at any point before or during the season, I would have been all over that, never letting him get to FAgency....don't know if he and his agent would have been agreeable to that but, given the dynamics of things---no minor league pitching close to ready in the system, thin available free agent pitching market----I would have tried (maybe we did but I don't think so, no indication we did)....if we could have signed Vargas and passed, we'll pay for it now, overpaying for whatever is out there...

 

Always takes two to tango.   Still think they may have dropped the ball.

[VariousCrap]

If Tanaka doesn't post, the market will get even more expensive.  Garza, Santana, Arroyo...all of their prices will go up.

 

This makes the Angels not signing Vargas, Hughes, etc. even more of a mistake.  Those are going to be huge bargains now.

[Inside Pitch]

If Tanaka doesn't post, the market will get even more expensive.  Garza, Santana, Arroyo...all of their prices will go up.

 

This makes the Angels not signing Vargas, Hughes, etc. even more of a mistake.  Those are going to be huge bargains now.

 

Pretty sure Tanaka will get posted -- but, he was always a long shot.

[ettin]

Considering our attempts to stay under the Luxury Tax I don't know why everyone here is assuming the Angels will even dip their hand in the starting pitcher free agent market? Why is that mandatory? Is it not conceivable and possible that we will acquire our needed pitching through trade?

 

Just making a point that a lot of people here are focused on free agent options when the reality is that we are more likely to acquire starting pitching through trade.

[VariousCrap]

Pretty sure Tanaka will get posted -- but, he was always a long shot.

 

 

 

If he does, I'd say the Angels should let the Yanks and Dogs outbid each other for his contract.  At this point, the Angels should focus on Garza and Arroyo.  I'd like one more relief pitcher too.

[VariousCrap]

Considering our attempts to stay under the Luxury Tax I don't know why everyone here is assuming the Angels will even dip their hand in the starting pitcher free agent market? Why is that mandatory? Is it not conceivable and possible that we will acquire our needed pitching through trade?

 

 

You obviously haven't been paying attention to info coming out the past week or so.  Other teams are not impressed enough with Trumbo, Howie and Aybar to give up good pitching.  Maybe this will change the further we go into the offseason, but right now, it just doesn't look good.

 

Finally, who says the Angels want to stay below the Luxury Tax?  There has never been a quote from Arte, Jerry or the Angels stating that.  It always comes from reporters.

[DMVol]

You obviously haven't been paying attention to info coming out the past week or so.  Other teams are not impressed enough with Trumbo, Howie and Aybar to give up good pitching.  Maybe this will change the further we go into the offseason, but right now, it just doesn't look good.

 

Finally, who says the Angels want to stay below the Luxury Tax?  There has never been a quote from Arte, Jerry or the Angels stating that.  It always comes from reporters.

 

^^^^This^^^^

[Inside Pitch]

If he does, I'd say the Angels should let the Yanks and Dogs outbid each other for his contract.  At this point, the Angels should focus on Garza and Arroyo.  I'd like one more relief pitcher too.

 

Garza is a slight upgrade over Hughes.  His ERA's are as much a byproduct of the parks he played in and the defenses he had behind him as they are anything he does himself.    His K and BB/9 rates are identical to what Hughes has done, the HR is slightly better but the parks they played in factors into that.  The positive with Garza is that Angels Stadium is a pitchers park and you know what to expect out of him but they will be paying Weaver/Wilson money for a career 108 ERA+ pitcher.   

 

If Garza is looking at 5-75, then I'd rather they go hard after Tanaka.   Potentially, there is a much bigger return -- albeit there is uncertainty.

[Inside Pitch]

Considering our attempts to stay under the Luxury Tax I don't know why everyone here is assuming the Angels will even dip their hand in the starting pitcher free agent market? Why is that mandatory? Is it not conceivable and possible that we will acquire our needed pitching through trade?

 

Just making a point that a lot of people here are focused on free agent options when the reality is that we are more likely to acquire starting pitching through trade.

 

Considered it -- sure.   But upon consideration I see a team devoid of depth that "on paper" was very good last year only to succumb to it's razor thin depth issues.   What have they done?  Replaced Callaspo, and replaced Downs.   So -- they are no deeper and they are down Bourjos plus a trade chip in Grichuk.  Trading for pitching is going to cost players the 2014 team likely needs in order to be in the running. I see a team that's best chance is to simply hope the offense carries over and that the last few spots in the rotation improve in order to even be consideration as contenters.

 

Now, if the brain-trust were to go on record as saying they are moving AK and Trumbo for guys they think can help in 2015, in hopes that it gives the teams in house prospects another year of developement id be tickled pink but IMO, they would likely get a better haul from a playoff contender looking for a piece at the deadline.  

 

Given the way things are shaping up -- I'd much rather they sign FA's.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[jshep]

The Angels had a chance to strike early before the market got stupid.   Grats on reading the market poorly.

 

So basically, it's only a matter of time before they sign Joe Blanton?

 

(By the way, Happy 1 Year Anniversary today Joe Blanton signing!)

[Inside Pitch]

So basically, it's only a matter of time before they sign Joe Blanton?

 

(By the way, Happy 1 Year Anniversary today Joe Blanton signing!)

 

 

Your'e being silly.   You're thinking Joe Saunders.

[ettin]

You obviously haven't been paying attention to info coming out the past week or so.  Other teams are not impressed enough with Trumbo, Howie and Aybar to give up good pitching.  Maybe this will change the further we go into the offseason, but right now, it just doesn't look good.

 

Finally, who says the Angels want to stay below the Luxury Tax?  There has never been a quote from Arte, Jerry or the Angels stating that.  It always comes from reporters.

 

Obviously you haven't read the dozens of posts I've made across the scores of threads over the last few weeks or you wouldn't make such an ill-informed statement yourself.

 

The same reporters you claim are reporting that the Angels want to stay under the luxury tax are the same reporters reporting that Trumbo, Howie, and Aybar aren't good enough to acquire starting pitching.

 

I'm glad you are part of the inner circle of the Angels front office that is in every negotiation, conference, or phone call with other teams in trade discussions to tell me that other teams are unimpressed with what we have to offer.

 

As for the luxury tax I never said that the Angels would definitely stay under it I said they are attempting to stay under it. They may very well blow through it but I think if they can find away to navigate a path that keeps them below they will and the fact that they haven't signed any free agent starting pitchers yet hints at that. Please try not to put words in my mouth Jim it is unappreciated.

 

In fact I have stated previously in more than one thread that I believe that the Angels can choose to blow through the luxury tax if they want to. All you have to do is go back and read through the dozens of posts I made over the last week to find it if you were paying attention.

[ettin]

Considered it -- sure.   But upon consideration I see a team devoid of depth that "on paper" was very good last year only to succumb to it's razor thin depth issues.   What have they done?  Replaced Callaspo, and replaced Downs.   So -- they are no deeper and they are down Bourjos plus a trade chip in Grichuk.  Trading for pitching is going to cost players the 2014 team likely needs in order to be in the running. I see a team that's best chance is to simply hope the offense carries over and that the last few spots in the rotation improve in order to even be consideration as contenters.

 

Now, if the brain-trust were to go on record as saying they are moving AK and Trumbo for guys they think can help in 2015, in hopes that it gives the teams in house prospects another year of developement id be tickled pink but IMO, they would likely get a better haul from a playoff contender looking for a piece at the deadline.  

 

Given the way things are shaping up -- I'd much rather they sign FA's.

 

IP, my statement was simply to point out that starting pitching doesn't necessarily have to come from free agency. That's all. I appreciate your response but I wasn't trying to start a debate about trading position players away I was simply fascinated with all of the posts freaking out about every free agent pitcher or reliever coming off the board and how the Angels are f***ing up by not getting them.

 

Personally I think we will sign one starting pitcher out of free agency. But I also think we will pick up two or more pitchers in trade (whether they are MLB ready or near-MLB ready).

[Inside Pitch]

IP, my statement was simply to point out that starting pitching doesn't necessarily have to come from free agency. That's all. I appreciate your response but I wasn't trying to start a debate about trading position players away I was simply fascinated with all of the posts freaking out about every free agent pitcher or reliever coming off the board and how the Angels are f***ing up by not getting them.

 

Personally I think we will sign one starting pitcher out of free agency. But I also think we will pick up two or more pitchers in trade (whether they are MLB ready or near-MLB ready).

 

 

There were two guys I liked for those spots -- they are both gone.  I'm not going to worry about them not getting other people.   At this point I think their best bet is to try to get Tanaka -- or go after some lower end guys like Maholm and possibly Baker both of which come with considerable risk.   I'd sooner go with Shoemaker than pay the $$s and years some of these guys want.  The idea of paying Garza 15+ mil a year for 5 years repulses me.

 

I guess I'm on record now as saying if they can't improve or get guys who could be ready in 2015, then hold on to what they have and try to get value at the break.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[VariousCrap]

Obviously you haven't read the dozens of posts I've made across the scores of threads over the last few weeks or you wouldn't make such an ill-informed statement yourself.

 

The same reporters you claim are reporting that the Angels want to stay under the luxury tax are the same reporters reporting that Trumbo, Howie, and Aybar aren't good enough to acquire starting pitching.

 

I'm glad you are part of the inner circle of the Angels front office that is in every negotiation, conference, or phone call with other teams in trade discussions to tell me that other teams are unimpressed with what we have to offer.

 

As for the luxury tax I never said that the Angels would definitely stay under it I said they are attempting to stay under it. They may very well blow through it but I think if they can find away to navigate a path that keeps them below they will and the fact that they haven't signed any free agent starting pitchers yet hints at that. Please try not to put words in my mouth Jim it is unappreciated.

 

In fact I have stated previously in more than one thread that I believe that the Angels can choose to blow through the luxury tax if they want to. All you have to do is go back and read through the dozens of posts I made over the last week to find it if you were paying attention.

 

 

LOL...oh boy.

[Angel Oracle]

I just wish we would have re-upped Williams for 2014.    Given the prices for starting pitching, and given that aside from July Williams pitched decently enough and pitched a total of about 170 innings with a 4.50 ERA, to not pay him $3.9 million for just 2014 is a total joke!  

 

I still believe that Richards/Williams as #4/#5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blanton and Hanson as #4/#5.

The big issue remaining then would have only been who assumes the #3 spot, and not having to bring in TWO new starters. 

 

I'm still not convinced that Dipoto knows what he is doing.   I still think his one great trade while with Arizona was only done because he was dealing with an even worse GM in J. Pierpont Reagins and an impulsive owner. 

Edited December 5, 2013 by Angel Oracle

[ettin]

LOL...oh boy.

 

Laugh all you want, you are the one that is making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm glad you realize now that you were wrong.

[Mark68]

I think I read on MLB Trade Rumors that the Angels offered Hughes a one-year deal for around $9-10 MM. Higher AAV, but fewer years.