Jump to content
  • Welcome to AngelsWin.com

    AngelsWin.com - THE Internet Home for Angels fans! Unraveling Angels Baseball ... One Thread at a Time.

    Register today to join the most interactive online Angels community on the net!

    Once you're a member you'll see less advertisements. Become a Premium member and you won't see any ads! 

     

IGNORED

Angels not shopping Trumbo


SoWhat

Recommended Posts

Trading prospects wouldn't hurt as much if the Angels had deeper drafts. And I am not talking about the 1st round picks we lose by signing FAs. If the scouting department did a better job on draft day, we would be replenishing what we trade each year with solid prospects again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I'm definitely thinking Jerry Dipoto is a lot more the guy who pumps up pitcher's win totals and clutch hits, and less the sabermetric darling that stresses count control by both pitchers and hitters.

 

Dude is totally outschooled here.

 

Proof of this is he traded for Joe Saunders when he was DBacks GM. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stoneman had his own failures as a GM, it was not like he didn't pick up Guillen, Colon (one good year), Escobar (always on the DL), Gary Matthews Jr (one good catch) but you guys wipe that slate clean because he held onto Woods, Mcpherson, even Kotchman along with a slew of other failed prospects while a pennant was in the Angels grasp if but for one mid season trade.

Rate Stoneman on what the Angels did in 2000-2001 seasons and you would now be screaming he should be fired. Hehad a flexible budget, lots of high draft picks in the minors and all the time in the world to rebuild the team. None of the luxuaries Dipoto has had to work with.

As for the Stoneman/Beane comparison, just how obtuse of arguments are you willing to make? Beane was constantly trading resources from his roster and minors while Stoneman was buying them on the open market. Beane held a bottom line Budget while the Angels skyrocketed to a top 5 payroll team. The two have nothing in common when it comes to resource management.

 

Escobar gave the Angels three 30 start seasons -- he broke down after he was re-signed.  

 

Guillen gave the Angels a 121 OPS+ season for 2.2 mil -- despite his assholery and the obvious need to move him Stoneman was able to turn him into two useful pieces -- Izturis, and Riviera who was a 107 OPS+ bat over his Angels career.

 

Your attempts at revisionist history are laughable.   The Angels farm system was ranked 30th by BBA when he took over -- the team had a total of 5 players as young as 19 in the entire system.  Stoneman completely reworked and rebuilt the farm system -- he reopened the Dominican training facility that Bavasi had shuttered -- he went into Venezuela for the first time.  Within 5 years the Angels were ranked number one by BBA.

 

Bavasi's last year in Anaheim the Angels were ranked 12th in payroll.  The 2002 Angels that won the WS ranked 15th.  The Angels didn't rank in the top 5 until 2004 -- by which point the Angels farm system was also ranked in the top 5 and at which point the Angels would go on a run where they would make the playoffs in 5 of 6 seasons.

 

You have never seen me sing the praises of Bill Stoneman because he held on to prospects, yet another straw man from the crown prince of made up arguments -- what you have seen me do is fault fans for thinking prospects are disposable.  IMO his greatest strength was in his ability to acquire talent for cheap.  Figgins, Eckstein, entire bullpens, Brad Fullmer (obtained for Brian freaking Cooper).   Like everyone else he made mistakes -- but none of them put the team in a position where it was painted into a corner.

Lastly .... what part of my saying that Stoneman understood the playoffs were a crapshoot did you not understand?  At no point did I argue that Beane and Stoneman had to work with the same limitations, simply put they both understood the trick is to GET THERE.. 

 

Jerry Dipoto was handed a better situation than the one Stoneman was given -- and he's gotten nowhere near the results.

Edited by Inside Pitch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was never a fan of Stoneman. I do think his strategy of holding onto prospects was a bad move from 03 to his final season. At the time we believed we had all of these super prospects who were can't miss, but as we've seen... Not the case. Now only if we had that philosophy from the Reagins era to now, we'd be in much better shape since we actually had prospects who were worth a damn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stoneman was a good GM, but his talents have become romanticized over the past few years of DiPoto / Reagins. Stoneman inherited a core group of players that should have already been reaching the post season consistently. Salmon, Anderson, Erstad, Edmonds, Glaus, Finley, Washburn, Percival, Molina, Shields not to mention Phil Nevin.

 

His philosophy was to keep the farm system going, restocking constantly and never trading away talent. The problem is, he never really developed anyone. John Lackey and Francisco Rodriguez come to mind, but who else? We never had a problem with depth, like we do now, but few important pieces were developed under Stoneman, with our insanely high rated system producing a long list of flops.

The real talent of Bill Stoneman was his ability to pick players up off the scrap heap and make them into something useful. Figgins, Eckstein, Donnelly, Weber, Spiezio, Gregg, Fullmer. All valuable pieces that we picked up for nothing. I don't think guys like Shuck really compare to that group, nor do any of our bullpen fliers. Stoneman showed an amazing ability to find undervalued talent at the major league level, but his drafts didn't show the same success on the field.

Edited by AngelsLakersFan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

EDIT: If there is any message being sent it sounds more to me like Dipoto is broadcasting the idea that he considers Trumbo more valuable than the offers that he may or may not have received from other teams. I read some of the follow-on posts after this one (first time reading this thread I think) and Stradling does have one point about the fact that many GM's (and especially agents) use the media to send broad messages out to other GM's, teams, and agents.

 

 

 

And my point remains the same.   When you have two players you are pitching, you don't prop one up and risk exposing the other.  

 

You can talk up how he is posturing with Trumbo.   If Im an oposing GM who has NO NEED for Trumbo I'm lowballing him in any Kendrick deals by saying -- well, everyone knows you want to hold on to Trumbo so -- this is all you have to trade.  Likewise, if I'm an agent I'm going to say -- Well, you're not getting what you want for the guys you wanted to trade -- so, come pay for my guy.

 

People act as if Trumbo and Kendrick would have equal appeal to teams -- it's silly.    The two guys aren't interchangeable and likely appeal to different teams.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trading prospects wouldn't hurt as much if the Angels had deeper drafts. And I am not talking about the 1st round picks we lose by signing FAs. If the scouting department did a better job on draft day, we would be replenishing what we trade each year with solid prospects again. 

 

You're right -- Halos havent drafted nearly as well as they did in the past.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was never a fan of Stoneman. I do think his strategy of holding onto prospects was a bad move from 03 to his final season. At the time we believed we had all of these super prospects who were can't miss, but as we've seen... Not the case. Now only if we had that philosophy from the Reagins era to now, we'd be in much better shape since we actually had prospects who were worth a damn.

 

People talk up the failures of some of the high profile guys and completely forget that in every case the Angels had a secondary prospect that did pan out everywhere except 3B.  

 

Wood crapped out, but Aybar was there.  Alexi Cassilla, Alberto Callaspo, and Howie Kendrick were all in the farm system at 2B -- two of those guys were traded for parts the team felt it needed -- Callapso ultimately came back to fill the vacancy at 3B.   People love to talk about the failure that was Jeff Mathis, but Napoli was there.  Kotch never became the guy people thought he would become but Kendrys was there when he was traded and after Tex bolted for NY.  How many teams had that sort of organizational depth?

 

The Angels also lost a ton of guys to rule 5 drafts and to DFA's because they had so many guys they needed to protect..

 

Howie Kendrick is a great example of the Stoneman era expectations.  Dude is likely the best 2B in Angels history not named Grich and yet he's viewed as a failure because he was touted as a potential batting champ.

Edited by Inside Pitch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, this is the right decision now. Trading Trumbo would just make the Freese trade look even worse. The only thing he brings is a slight upgrade to the offense and that upgrade would be nullified if they moved Trumbo and he was simply replacing Trumbo's bat

 

I agree.  I have always said the Bourjos trade only makes sense if:

 

They knew they couldn't get a pitcher for Bourjos straight up AND they wanted to keep Trumbo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And my point remains the same.   When you have two players you are pitching, you don't prop one up and risk exposing the other.  

 

You can talk up how he is posturing with Trumbo.   If Im an oposing GM who has NO NEED for Trumbo I'm lowballing him in any Kendrick deals by saying -- well, everyone knows you want to hold on to Trumbo so -- this is all you have to trade.  Likewise, if I'm an agent I'm going to say -- Well, you're not getting what you want for the guys you wanted to trade -- so, come pay for my guy.

 

People act as if Trumbo and Kendrick would have equal appeal to teams -- it's silly.    The two guys aren't interchangeable and likely appeal to different teams.

 

Dipoto's quotes in that article speak NOTHING about Kendrick. Only the author mentions Kendrick. The Dipoto quotes are strictly about Trumbo. Your point assumes that the two are interconnected and basically they are not. One is a 2nd baseman the other is a 1st baseman/OF. There was perhaps only one or two teams in baseball that might have had dual interest in both.

 

Sorry IP, I really respect your opinions in a lot of posts but I think you are really making a mountain out of, at best, a molehill in this particular instance.

 

EDIT: Perhaps we are looking at the same thing but from different angles. However I still feel you are overthinking the thought process of opposing teams.

Edited by ettin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm fine with keeping everybody as long as they actually get 2 starters that will make a difference. Arroyo and Feldman isn't going to cut it. 

 

If we can sign 2 of any Tanaka, Garza, Colon, Arroyo, then I would be pretty satisfied. 

 

I also don't really believe a damn thing a GM says. They can't really leak any information because it may work against them. Remember when Dipoto was looking for pitching and ended up signing Pujols the next day?

 

Everytime I hear Colon's name come up as a possible Angel I puke!

 

It is very ironic where so many on this board would blast HGH users as embarrassments to the game, yet we are now advocating signing Colon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dipoto's quotes in that article speak NOTHING about Kendrick. Only the author mentions Kendrick. The Dipoto quotes are strictly about Trumbo. Your point assumes that the two are interconnected and basically they are not. One is a 2nd baseman the other is a 1st baseman/OF. There was perhaps only one or two teams in baseball that might have had dual interest in both.

 

Sorry IP, I really respect your opinions in a lot of posts but I think you are really making a mountain out of, at best, a molehill in this particular instance.

 

 

WOW -- what you quoted and responded to actually states THEY AREN'T interchangeable.  

 

There is no need to qualify your statements -- we can disagree and not have an issue.  But, having spoken to a couple guys still in MLB front offices -- they are reading Dipoto the way I am.   Others might view him as a master tactician. 

 

BTW, my mindset isnt based on ONE quote.  It's everything that's been coming from him the entire off-season.  His most recent quote tends to sink some of his other stated "goals".   If the guy's been saying he plans to trade for pitching and then follows it up by building one guy up -- then it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out it's hurting the other possible trade candidates.  

Not mentioning Kendrick by name means next to nothing.

Edited by Inside Pitch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Storm, I agree with you that PED users are cheaters and should generally be avoided, but we aren't in a position to be self-righteous like that. If the guy helps the team win, that's all that matters.

Now if you want to argue that he wouldn't really help all that much then that's a different story and I would probably agree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure the agents and GMs know if Trumbo is really available or not b/c I'm sure there has been talk with him involved.  No one is off limits, save for Trout Weaver, and Wilson most likely.

 

In fact, Dipoto's last quote is "You never know what can happen when you start talking," Dipoto said, acknowledging there is always a chance a deal for Trumbo could materialize, "but Mark is valuable to us for the same reason other teams value him."  Basically, Dipoto is saying if all things were equal and we didn't have void for pitching, we'd keep Trumbo.  However, I'm sure if a team ponies up a 2/3 SP, he'd talk.


 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

WOW -- what you quoted and responded to actually states THEY AREN'T interchangeable.  

 

There is no need to qualify your statements -- we can disagree and not have an issue.  But, having spoken to a couple guys still in MLB front offices -- they are reading Dipoto the way I am.   Others might view him as a master tactician. 

 

BTW, my mindset isnt based on ONE quote.  It's everything that's been coming from him the entire off-season.  His most recent quote tends to sink some of his other stated "goals".   If the guy's been saying he plans to trade for pitching and then follows it up by building one guy up -- then it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out it's hurting the other possible trade candidates.  

Not mentioning Kendrick by name means next to nothing.

 

Okay well this debate is seemingly going no where in my mind. Dipoto speaking about Trumbo in this article has no relevant effect on Kendrick trade talks in my opinion. If the rocket scientist line was a crack at me I'm a little offended. This off-season is making everyone crazy (myself included).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay well this debate is seemingly going no where in my mind. Dipoto speaking about Trumbo in this article has no relevant effect on Kendrick trade talks in my opinion. If the rocket scientist line was a crack at me I'm a little offended. This off-season is making everyone crazy (myself included).

 

Nah -- the rocket scientist comment is a throw-away line.  

 

I think we are looking at things from different perspectives.  You seem to be thinking along the lines of what the Angels are saying, I'm looking for how an opposing team or potential agent will try to exploit it.  I doubt any of them are willing to do the Angels any favors.

 

As a fan, you can give them the benefit of the doubt, as someone trying to beat them -- I think you have to look for leverage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah -- the rocket scientist comment is a throw-away line.  

 

I think we are looking at things from different perspectives.  You seem to be thinking along the lines of what the Angels are saying, I'm looking for how an opposing team or potential agent will try to exploit it.  I doubt any of them are willing to do the Angels any favors.

 

As a fan, you can give them the benefit of the doubt, as someone trying to beat them -- I think you have to look for leverage.

 

Had to ask about the Rocket Scientist line as you smart-lawyer types love subtlety sometimes! :P

 

In general I think the Angels were at a disadvantage in trade going into the off-season. I don't think it is leveraged on any particular player, thus my comments about Trumbo not affecting Kendrick.

 

I do agree that there is a perception of general weakness which some agents/teams may try to exploit. To me these Trumbo quotes are simply Dipoto pounding back on any team or teams that are trying to take advantage of the perceived general weakness.

 

That was the reason I even said anything in the first place because you feel (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Dipoto's quotes about Trumbo impact Kendrick talks and my opinion is that they are playing two different positions and that most teams out there don't have a dual interest in the both of them where that might actually have any real impact (if any).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When it really comes down to it, what they say in the press is really just for the fans. I call it posturing but when push comes to shove he will not really get any more or any less for Howie or Trumbo because he talked about one and not the other to the press. Oh and if he does, then I am guessing the GM that gives more, well needless to say, he isn't a rocket scientist either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Athletics, #DBacks discussed trade that would have sent Cespedes to AZ for Skaggs-Pollock-plus. However…

@Ken_Rosenthal: Both teams now say they were not comfortable with particular deal. For one thing, #Athletics only would trade Cespedes for monster return.

@Ken_Rosenthal: Discussion with #Athletics on Cespedes gives insight into #DBacks’ desire for power bat. Skaggs-Pollock also could be used to get SP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Colon would help this team, no?

 

Maybe... he could fail a test, he could lose 4-5 mph on his fastball, he could suffer a heart attack on his way to the mound...

 

He's looking to cash in. Last contract. Bet he holds out for 2 years minimum guaranteed at $12M+ per. Maybe even more. He can afford to sit and wait until we are desperate enough to pay that kind of jack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe... he could fail a test, he could lose 4-5 mph on his fastball, he could suffer a heart attack on his way to the mound...

He's looking to cash in. Last contract. Bet he holds out for 2 years minimum guaranteed at $12M+ per. Maybe even more. He can afford to sit and wait until we are desperate enough to pay that kind of jack.

Laughed at the heart attack joke lol.

In all seriousness though, I trust him more than I would trust most other FA starters. He definitely could regress big time next year but even if he was half as good, he'd be a 2 WAR pitcher, which I think I would take at this point.

Still hopeful that we can find a way to land Tanaka or get Garza for less than what he's expected to make.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...