Cardinals could trade Lance Lynn or Shelby Miller this offseason for a new shortstop

[tdawg87]

I just don't see where the Angels would be able to replace Aybar at.  Grant Green's fine as a fill-in SS and I know the Angels strongly considered dealing Aybar last trade deadline, but under no circumstance is Green an everyday player there.  Andrew Romine doesn't have enough bat to play the position everyday and while Lucho played a few games there in AAA, that was for nothing more than training for emergency purposes. 

 

If the Angels dealt Aybar they've have to jump into free agency and either overspend on Stephen Drew, take a chance of PED user Jhonny Peralta or resign Brendan Harris.  

 

Is that something you'd really want to do?  I guess if it means landing Shelby Miller or Trevor Rosenthal (and moving him into the rotation) then sure.  But outside of that, no way. 

 

This is the downside to the Angels' situation. Other than maybe Trumbo and Bourjos, any of their major trade pieces are going to create a significant hole at their respective positions. However, I think the need for pitching is much greater than the need for a solid, steady shortstop. Losing Aybar would suck, but I think between Green, Romine, and even Field, his production won't be missed too significantly.

[Second Base]

I kinda just feel like trading Aybar's the one thing we couldn't recover completely from.  If we trade Howie, the Angels would be fine with Grant Green's bat, he can hit the ball, plus Lindsey's only a year away and Yarbrough two.  If the Angels trade Bourjos, that's fine, Trout goes to CF and that's the end of that.  If we trade Trumbo, perfectly fine, Trout moves to LF and Bourjos goes back to CF.  If we trade Trumbo and Bourjos, we're still good, Trout goes to CF and Calhoun takes over LF and we sign a DH for cheap until Cron is ready. 

 

Aybar's the only one we don't have a considerable plan B for.  I feel like the Angels trading Howie, Bourjos and Trumbo, the offense would still be fine and the pitching staff and farm would be upgraded in a HUGE way.  That should be enough without having to sacrifice Aybar. 

[Brent Maguire]

Well said Scotty.

 

I think Trumbo absolutely gets traded and most likely Bourjos too. 

[VariousCrap]

If trading Aybar/Bourjos means Miller, you do it.  There are moves the Angels can then make to fill that SS position.  Aybar is not untouchable for goodness sakes.

[Docwaukee]

I view the relative drop from Aybar to Romine as being a similar downgrade to the drop from Howie to Green on a percentage basis.   There is relative value vs. absolute production.  If you lose 20% of your production from a player with a WAR of 3.5 vs. 20% of your production from a player with a WAR of 2, the former is the larger downgrade.  The numbers may not be right on, but I view losing Howie as the greater loss in overall production even though Green is likely more productive than Romine.   The big difference is defense.  Romine is a premier defender and although he's really a utility infielder, his production and ability to make up Aybar's loss is mostly dependent on defense which is a lot more reliable than depending on Green's bat which we don't know will play for sure yet we know he's a downgrade on D. 

[arch stanton]

If you tell Romine he's starting 150 games at SS and batting 9th I don't think you'll see a big drop off from Aybar. 

[Angel Oracle]

If Romine hits anything like he did in September, then an Aybar trade for a much needed pitcher makes sense.

I know the Cardinals are deep, deep in pitching, but I still can't see them trading Miller, and still don't understand how he was shoved out of the post-season rotation. The only thing I can figure is that he was already 23 innings above his 2012 workload, and they were being cautious about his workload.

He sure was already better than Lynn with a full run better ERA and similar K rate and better BBs rate.

Miller is a future Cy Young candidate. Lynn is a future #3/#4 starter.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Angel Oracle

[bloodbrother]

Get Siegrist from them along with Lynn or Miller. Just get as many of their arms as they can, actually

[HaloCory22]

Get Siegrist from them along with Lynn or Miller. Just get as many of their arms as they can, actually

This.

[405z06]

I think it's reasonable to expect the Cards to trade some young arms this off-season in looking to upgrade CF, SS and 3B. Unfortunately for the Angles, the only real attractive player to fit any of those needs for young stud pitching would be Trout, and that obv ain't gonna happen. Both Borjesus and Aybar might be attractive, but the Angels wouldn't be getting Miller, Wacha, Rosenthal, Martinez. Think possibly Lynn or Kelly. But I think the Cards will go big.

 

The Rockies GM said they they won't trade Tulo, but would they pass up Adams, Miller, + B+ prospect?

Edited November 5, 2013 by 405z06

[ten ocho recon scout]

I would dig on getting kelly. I doubt he'd be the guy we watched in the playoffs, but he'd be a good young arm.

Agreed wacha/miller etc are a pipe dream.

Tulo is not going to the cards. Doubt they are in any hurry to take on that contract.

[Hoops McCann]

In terms of why Miller didnt pitch in the post-season (save the appearance against Pitt).  From what I've read here and listened to, it seems the issue was two-fold.  He essentially hit his innings limit in end-September and he was wearing down as was seen by his stats/performance.  I think the team was being safe with him and his arm. 

 

Secondly, the team didnt like the match-ups for him against the Pirates and by the time the NLDS rolled around, he hadnt pitched in weeks, so they may have been wary about that.  On top of that, Wacha seemed a man on fire and that likely had a lot to do with it as well.

 

Again, I dont want to seem degrading here, but there is zero chance Miller is moved for Aybar.  I think the team would rather either pursue Tulo/Profar or Drew/Peralta in the FA market given various options.

[YouthofToday]

Tulo isn't going to be traded short of a Colon to the Expos type haul.

[Brent Maguire]

The Cardinals need an average or above average SS, not a superstar.

Stephen Drew is a perfect fit there although Aybar and Andrus could be options as well.

[VariousCrap]

In terms of why Miller didnt pitch in the post-season (save the appearance against Pitt).  From what I've read here and listened to, it seems the issue was two-fold.  He essentially hit his innings limit in end-September and he was wearing down as was seen by his stats/performance.  I think the team was being safe with him and his arm. 

 

Secondly, the team didnt like the match-ups for him against the Pirates and by the time the NLDS rolled around, he hadnt pitched in weeks, so they may have been wary about that.  On top of that, Wacha seemed a man on fire and that likely had a lot to do with it as well.

 

Again, I dont want to seem degrading here, but there is zero chance Miller is moved for Aybar.  I think the team would rather either pursue Tulo/Profar or Drew/Peralta in the FA market given various options.

 

 

I read on ESPN that the Cards didn't use Miller in the post-season because they were planning on trading him and didn't want anything to ruin his trade value.

 

Finally, if you don't think the Cards would at least be interested in Aybar & Bourjos for Miller, I think you are wrong.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jim B

[Hoops McCann]

I read on ESPN that the Cards didn't use Miller in the post-season because they were planning on trading him and didn't want anything to ruin his trade value.

 

Finally, if you don't think the Cards would at least be interested in Aybar & Bourjos for Miller, I think you are wrong.

 

That is just sheer speculation.  And, if that is the truth, then the entire front office would need to be fired.  Do you honestly believe that the Cards management and coach wouldnt use Miller because they had a trade lined up and didnt want him hurt?  Come on...that is preposterous.

 

Again, Aybar just isnt very good and Bourjos hasnt been able to stay healthy long enough to really know his true value.  So, again, based on those two facts, I'm pretty certain the Cards wouldnt be interested in that deal.  I could be wrong, but knowing the team as I do, I tend to think I'm more right than wrong.  Now, Lynn for Aybar...that may be possible.

 

I just dont see a good match in trade partners between the Angels and Cards. 

[Brent Maguire]

I read on ESPN that the Cards didn't use Miller in the post-season because they were planning on trading him and didn't want anything to ruin his trade value.

 

Finally, if you don't think the Cards would at least be interested in Aybar & Bourjos for Miller, I think you are wrong.

Aybar and Bourjos is not going to fetch Miller, IMO. 

 

We're talking about a 23 year old rookie who posted a 8.78 K/9 rate and a well above average ERA and FIP. He has the chance to be a top 10-15 pitching commodity in the game. They can easily trade Lynn or Kelly and find their replacement at SS. Jon Jay isn't bad either. He's an above average hitter and can handle CF pretty well. 

 

I think we're a good match with them but if we're trading with them, I think Aybar for Lynn+ a prospect would be the most reasonable scenario. 

[Hoops McCann]

Aybar and Bourjos is not going to fetch Miller, IMO. 

 

We're talking about a 23 year old rookie who posted a 8.78 K/9 rate and a well above average ERA and FIP. He has the chance to be a top 10-15 pitching commodity in the game. They can easily trade Lynn or Kelly and find their replacement at SS. Jon Jay isn't bad either. He's an above average hitter and can handle CF pretty well. 

 

I think we're a good match with them but if we're trading with them, I think Aybar for Lynn+ a prospect would be the most reasonable scenario. 

This I agree with.  If I were the Angels, I may try to get Kelly + Siegrist for Aybar rather than Lance Lynn.  That would be a much better haul for the Angels.

 

As a Cards fan, I'd be happy with a Lynn for Aybar swap.  Not so much if it were Kelly + Siegrist.

[Brent Maguire]

I like Lynn much more than Kelly but Kelly is a good option too. 

 

Lynn inserts as our #3 and you can resign Vargas as the 4.

 

A 3-4-5 of Lynn, Vargas and Richards is far better than having Vargas-Hanson-Blanton. All we need is our back end to not suck. In that scenario, you have no bad pitcher at the back end. 

[Agalloch]

I don't want any part of Lynn for Aybar. If we could put together a package for Miller then I'd give almost anyone on our roster to make it happen. That being said, I think the Cards wanna hang onto him unless they're getting a Profar in return. Even if we throw in Borjous I think the Cards turn us down though I do think they'd consider it but they can get similar value for Kelly. I'd happily do Aybar for Kelly which seems somewhat realistic, I'd consider throwing in Borjous if it had to be done. We keep Kendrick and Trumbo in that scenerio and bid for Tanaka and if that fails then welcome back, Vargas.

[ten ocho recon scout]

^this

Id be stoked to get either lynn or kelly, but would prefer if it happened and we land tanaka (or at worst retain vargas).

Richards the number 5, jerome as the spot starter. That plus two real arms for the pen (and cross fingers burnett comes back the same) and we're a huge improvement over 2013. And it still leaves us with a pretty good offense.

That said, and maybe this isn't the thread, but we also really have to consider the possibility of cj taking a step backwards, and weaver not being weaver for much longer. (It will happen eventually).

This is why I'm really hoping that aside from tanaka (who I doubt we get), we NEED a plus pitcher still in his twenties.

Hoping the cards see us as a good trade partner.

[VariousCrap]

Again, Aybar just isnt very good and Bourjos hasnt been able to stay healthy long enough to really know his true value.  So, again, based on those two facts, I'm pretty certain the Cards wouldnt be interested in that deal. 

. 

 

 

Two facts?  BS.

 

You undervalue Aybar and his contract and Bourjos injuries this year had nothing to do with health issues.

 

 

Finally, if the Angels do Aybar for Lynn, Jerry needs to be fired on the spot.  The Cards would have to offer more than Lynn for Aybar.

[VariousCrap]

This I agree with.  If I were the Angels, I may try to get Kelly + Siegrist for Aybar rather than Lance Lynn.  That would be a much better haul for the Angels.

 

As a Cards fan, I'd be happy with a Lynn for Aybar swap.  Not so much if it were Kelly + Siegrist.

 

 

Well, I'd support Aybar for Kelly & Siegrist or even Aybar for Lynn, Siegrist & prospect.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jim B

[Scott34]

Why are we skipping the part where Lance Lynn isn't really a good pitcher?

Edited November 6, 2013 by Scott34

[AngelsLakersFan]

That is just sheer speculation.  And, if that is the truth, then the entire front office would need to be fired.  Do you honestly believe that the Cards management and coach wouldnt use Miller because they had a trade lined up and didnt want him hurt?  Come on...that is preposterous.

 

Again, Aybar just isnt very good and Bourjos hasnt been able to stay healthy long enough to really know his true value.  So, again, based on those two facts, I'm pretty certain the Cards wouldnt be interested in that deal.  I could be wrong, but knowing the team as I do, I tend to think I'm more right than wrong.  Now, Lynn for Aybar...that may be possible.

 

I just dont see a good match in trade partners between the Angels and Cards. 

 

And this here is the problem with the strategy of selling low on Aybar and Bourjos.

 

Aybar and Bourjos for Miller very well may be a very fair trade for both teams, but ultimately the Cardinals probably wouldn't do it because of the perception of getting a bad deal and the belief that Aybar/Bourjos should get a lesser return.