Ubaldo Jimenez

[Blarg]

but most of those players suck. 

 

the point is that if you are going to spend a shitpot full of cash, then it needs to be for a really good player.  Tanaka is likely to be the best pitcher the halos have access to for the next 3 years. 

 

The midling SP free agent is the worst value out there in my opinion.  So many of these guys that get the 2-4yr/15-50mil deals end up being horrible. 

 

Ubaldo is gonna get 4/60 I think.  he's as likely to completely suck as be good.

Doc I really respect your opinion but you are off the mark on Tanaka. You have no more assurances that he will be a Darvish or a Matsusaka in performance in the AL. The only thing you do know is that you have to give a lump sum amount, probabaly in the plus $50 million amount to aquire him from the Japanese league, then pay him more than likly at least $10 million annually no matter how you spread the money out across 5 years. That makes him a net $20 million a year pitcher.

Even if you go over the cap for 2 or 3 years on a transition pitcher like Vargas you come out ahead dollar wise and at least you have a real resume to bank on. That resume does not include burnout innings and pitches thrown per game in the Japanese league.

[Deek]

I'm sure Butcher would fix whatever Cleveland did to him.

 

+1...

 

I like Jimenez, but if he did, in fact, turn it around because of the coaching around him... I don't hold out much hope that trend continues under our pitching coach...

[Angel Oracle]

I hope this org now has scouts who can find the RIGHT young arms via trade.

[Glen]

Indians just gave him a qualifying offer.  Cross him off your list.

[YouthofToday]

We can't afford to "overpay" for talent if it costs a 1st round pick.

[T.G.]

Ubaldo is intriguing, but like the others - I'd rather not give up a draft pick for him.  As for McCann, I predict he stays closer to home and signs with a team that has their spring training in Florida.  I'm betting Boston.  The Angels best bet is Tanaka and I know most people automatically assume that the Yankees or Dodgers will win that bid, but I wouldn't bet against Arte here.  I'm also for trading for David Price.

[nate]

I really don't get why anyone would want him.  He struggles with his control, we don't need any more pitchers like that.

[Chuck]

Thank you Cleveland, unlike Angry Arte, they aren't afraid to make qualifying offers to try to get an extra early pick.    Imagine how many draft picks we've lost since Arte Moreno became owner, because he's scared s_itless to use this method to help stock the farm with the extra picks. 

 

Hey Arte, just how many of those players who you refused to qualify offer to would have ended up taking it and stinking up the place for that one year here?

 

 

These same draft picks and young players we gave up were for the same players you circle jerked over when they came to the Angels via a trade or FA. 

 

I seriously don't get you and a few others. Take a chill pill and look at the entire picture. If we had kept those players and they sucked, you'd be bitching because we kept them too long and didn't trade them at their peak value. 

[jshep]

Doc I really respect your opinion but you are off the mark on Tanaka. You have no more assurances that he will be a Darvish or a Matsusaka in performance in the AL. The only thing you do know is that you have to give a lump sum amount, probabaly in the plus $50 million amount to aquire him from the Japanese league, then pay him more than likly at least $10 million annually no matter how you spread the money out across 5 years. That makes him a net $20 million a year pitcher.

Even if you go over the cap for 2 or 3 years on a transition pitcher like Vargas you come out ahead dollar wise and at least you have a real resume to bank on. That resume does not include burnout innings and pitches thrown per game in the Japanese league.

 

I kind of thought that "YOU CANT PAY A BUNCH OF MONEY FOR A PITCHER FROM JAPAN BECAUSE DICE-K!!!!1111!!!!" thing would have died down by now. You know, like when we were so sure Darvish was a bad investment because Dice-K.

 

Because we can play the "there are no assurances" game with any guy you like, and I rather take the gamble on going big for someone like Tanaka who at least has the possibility of being a Kuroda-esque #2 starter for years to come, than pay for somewhat expensive wildcards like Jimenez or Garza or Santana(not that anyone is really talking about Santana coming back here, but he fits into that category I think) or settle for also not particularly cheap mediocrity. Or filling out the rotation with innings eaters and starting the "Well, there's always next year!"s early. 

Edited November 5, 2013 by jshep

[Angel Oracle]

Wrong, I never fawned all over Haren when he was acquired.   I was one of the minority who questioned the acquisition due to his high post-ASB ERA from 2006-2009.   I may have come around shortly after the trade, BUT I still voiced concern about his second halves, and over trading TWO key lefty prospects.

 

I was never really for the Kazmir trade.  

I saw the declining numbers from his 2006/2007 seasons by August 2009, and saw a rock solid lefty being traded away (Alex Torres) plus a solid utility guy in Rodriguez (admittedly easier to find).

 

Wells was another trade I was mostly never for, but did pull back to see what he did.   Sure enough, FLOP!

 

Pujols, I do admit being happy to get him but not happy with the length of the contract (preferring 7 years).   Obviously, this is NOT the Pujols we expected.

 

Hamilton, I was slightly above 50-50 but also concerned with his bad middle of 2012 season and the ending of it, as well as how he would fare away from home.    He did rebound OBP wise in August/September, but still wasn't hitting for much power.

 

Wilson, I was in favor of; and outside of the bad 2nd half of 2012, he has been worth every bit of his salary so far.

 

Finally, you can't keep almost all of your prospects, or trade almost all of them.    Most successful teams have a balanced method to building a strong org.    We went from keeping all of them under Stoneman, to trading most of them under Reagins.    I do prefer Stoneman's method obviously, because Reagins' method only led to thinning out the org and causing apparently panic like moves like Wells, et al.

 

Are you truly happy that every key pitching prospect outside of Richards was traded in a one year period (August 2009-July 2010)?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Angel Oracle

[Stradling]

These same draft picks and young players we gave up were for the same players you circle jerked over when they came to the Angels via a trade or FA. 

 

I seriously don't get you and a few others. Take a chill pill and look at the entire picture. If we had kept those players and they sucked, you'd be bitching because we kept them too long and didn't trade them at their peak value. 

You must be new here. 

[Chuck]

You must be new here. 

 

I just started. Hi, who are you?

[Stradling]

Wrong, I never fawned all over Haren when he was acquired.   I was one of the minority who questioned the acquisition due to his high post-ASB ERA from 2006-2009.   I may have come around shortly after the trade, BUT I still voiced concern about his second halves, and over trading TWO key lefty prospects.

 

I was never really for the Kazmir trade.  

I saw the declining numbers from his 2006/2007 seasons by August 2009, and saw a rock solid lefty being traded away (Alex Torres) plus a solid utility guy in Rodriguez (admittedly easier to find).

 

Wells was another trade I was mostly never for, but did pull back to see what he did.   Sure enough, FLOP!

 

Pujols, I do admit being happy to get him but not happy with the length of the contract (preferring 7 years).   Obviously, this is NOT the Pujols we expected.

 

Hamilton, I was slightly above 50-50 but also concerned with his bad middle of 2012 season and the ending of it, as well as how he would fare away from home.    He did rebound OBP wise in August/September, but still wasn't hitting for much power.

 

Wilson, I was in favor of; and outside of the bad 2nd half of 2012, he has been worth every bit of his salary so far.

 

Finally, you can't keep almost all of your prospects, or trade almost all of them.    Most successful teams have a balanced method to building a strong org.    We went from keeping all of them under Stoneman, to trading most of them under Reagins.    I do prefer Stoneman's method obviously, because Reagins' method only led to thinning out the org and causing apparently panic like moves like Wells, et al.

 

Are you truly happy that every key pitching prospect outside of Richards was traded in a one year period (August 2009-July 2010)?

 

Well AO, if they weren't all traded in that one year period, you would have only about half of the posts you have now, so I am kinda happy I guess.  So the Angels traded for Kazmir and he flopped, big deal.  They gave up one guy (SRod) that has never been what you thought he would have been and Alex Torres.  The Alex Torres who after three years is now pitching in the big leagues, who cares.  We traded away two very good pitching prospects for Dan Haren, who was a top of the rotation guy.  He was coming off of a bad season, but he pitched really good for us for a year and a half.  He was the perfect two to Weavers one.  It certainly wasn't his fault we didn't make it to the playoffs.  The team needed another quality arm for a playoff run and we got one, unfortunately it didn't work out.  Every team makes bad moves to try to win now, it's just that some realize that it is the cost of trying to win now and others don't quite understand that, or would just be happier being pissed off. 

 

[Tank]

never thought i'd see a 4 page thread about a guy named ubaldo.

[Mark68]

never thought i'd see a 4 page thread about a guy named ubaldo.

Better Ubaldo than Ibaldo.

[Tank]

Better Ubaldo than Ibaldo.

 

i don't always see, but when i do, it's what you did there.