Jon Lester..?

[Angels]

The problem with those other stats you listed is that they don't accurately reflect what's going on. In Weaver's case, there's no point even bringing up FIP or xFIP. Those stats will always undervalue him. BABIP is not a skill according to those stats. According to xFIP, limiting home runs is not a skill. Both of those stats automatically give every pitcher in baseball a league average BABIP and xFIP automatically gives every pitcher in baseball a league average HR rate. Weaver's HR/FB has always been way, way below the league average. His BABIP has always been way, way below the league average. Those stats don't reflect that.

 

His K/9 in 2013 was low compared to other years, but his SwStr% was the second highest mark of his career (2010) so he was still missing plenty of bats, even if it didn't show in his strikeouts. And his HR/9 was in line with his career marks. 2011 was the anomaly as far as that is concerned.

[Ohtaniland]

I just don't get why so many fans are down on Weave. 

 

Nobody is down on Weaver. It's just a fact of life. He's no longer a 200 strikeout 92-95 MPH type pitcher anymore. He would make a solid #3 on the Tigers, Dodgers.........oh and Seattle. 

[mtangelsfan]

Which is why I included other stats.

 

Meh, he's been our best pitcher for what, 5 seasons?  He's given us a hometown discount and a lot of good seasons.  It's amazing how quickly fans can turn on players.  Fans want everything and whine about giving anything in return.

[Ohtaniland]

Meh, he's been our best pitcher for what, 5 seasons?  He's given us a hometown discount and a lot of good seasons.  It's amazing how quickly fans can turn on players.  Fans want everything and whine about giving anything in return.

 

All of those things that you've mentioned don't change the fact that he's no longer an Ace. We really don't have one. 

[HaloCory22]

Meh, he's been our best pitcher for what, 5 seasons?  He's given us a hometown discount and a lot of good seasons.  It's amazing how quickly fans can turn on players.  Fans want everything and whine about giving anything in return.

Who is turning on him? I just said he isn't in his prime anymore. Idk how that means I've turned on him and want him out of here. He's still our "ace" but just not an elite pitcher anymore.

[tdawg87]

Trying to be as neutral as possible, I think people have lost site of baseball being a game for fun, and are now all about stats and performance. While those are important for the team to compete, they aren't important to be a fan. Weaver may not be an "ace" as some will put it, but he is a great pitcher and a great guy who is a fan favorite simply because of who he is. People love him because he's a local guy who cares more about the game than money. While I hate losing as much as anyone on this board and will vent and moan about the team when they suck, I haven't lost sight of the fact that this is a game for fun. It isn't a business.You need guys you can root for and get behind, and Weaver is one of those guys.

[Angel Oracle]

Weaver is an ideal case of a team leader, even if by just example.

He doesn't call out defenders (Hi Lackey) and doesn't give in on batters.

[mtangelsfan]

Who is turning on him? I just said he isn't in his prime anymore. Idk how that means I've turned on him and want him out of here. He's still our "ace" but just not an elite pitcher anymore.

 

If you have been reading this forum for that last few months you will have read multiple threads and posts stating how weave isn't all that anymore.  What is the point?  He is the best we have.  Why badmouth the guy at all?  He's still really good.  There just seems to be a lot of negativity about Weaver.  It's dissapointing when there is a lot to be pissed and bummed about and yet we find one of the few things that aren't and still manage to complain about that too.

[Tank]

Nobody is down on Weaver. It's just a fact of life. He's no longer a 200 strikeout 92-95 MPH type pitcher anymore. He would make a solid #3 on the Tigers, Dodgers.........oh and Seattle. 

 

did he turn you down for an autograph or something? he may not be overpowering, but he's still very effective and i'd give him the ball for any important game for the halos and not even think twice about it.

[full circle]

Trying to be as neutral as possible, I think people have lost site of baseball being a game for fun, and are now all about stats and performance. While those are important for the team to compete, they aren't important to be a fan. Weaver may not be an "ace" as some will put it, but he is a great pitcher and a great guy who is a fan favorite simply because of who he is. People love him because he's a local guy who cares more about the game than money. While I hate losing as much as anyone on this board and will vent and moan about the team when they suck, I haven't lost sight of the fact that this is a game for fun. It isn't a business.You need guys you can root for and get behind, and Weaver is one of those guys.

 

These are threads about how the Angels can possibly upgrade their pitching.  It's all part of the fun of being a baseball fan.  Everything discussed in this forum is for fun.  I don't see anyone advocating trading Weaver away or calling for him to be released, no one is not rooting for him.  

Edited October 14, 2013 by full circle

[Ohtaniland]

did he turn you down for an autograph or something? he may not be overpowering, but he's still very effective and i'd give him the ball for any important game for the halos and not even think twice about it.

 

Yes he's the best WE have. But WE don't have much.

[full circle]

If you have been reading this forum for that last few months you will have read multiple threads and posts stating how weave isn't all that anymore.  What is the point?  He is the best we have.  Why badmouth the guy at all?  He's still really good.  There just seems to be a lot of negativity about Weaver.  It's dissapointing when there is a lot to be pissed and bummed about and yet we find one of the few things that aren't and still manage to complain about that too.

He's not as good as he used to be, that's to be expected.  You feel like that shouldn't be brought up?  Just a tad bit of wishful thinking.  A lot of what is talked about on here is geared toward how the Angels can improve themselves, you can't do that without evaluating what you already have.  I think most of us on here have the capability of still being fans of our guys even when they inevitably begin to decline.  

[ettin]

Baltimore's biggest need is SP.  I don't see them dealing Bundy.

 

 

Yeah it really doesn't make sense for them. I'm guessing they would have to be absolutely blown away by an offer if they were to even consider it. That is simply something the Angels don't have the ability to do.

 

I'd disagree with the both of you about their pitching depth. They have Chris Tillman, Jason Hammel, Miguel Gonzalez, Bud Norris, Wei-Yen Chen, Kevin Gausman, Zach Britton, and Brian Matusz who are all rotation candidates. Then in the Minors you have Dylan Bundy, Eduardo Rodriguez, Mike Wright, and Steve Johnson as depth. That is 12 potential starting pitchers deep?

 

It is an area of depth that they could deal from. Would they even consider trading Bundy? I'm sure it is a long shot but it is not impossible. The O's have other areas of need, one of which is 2nd base, so there is definitely a potential fit but the real question is there a potential match? Again a long shot but I don't think any player is untouchable. Look at Gerrit Cole? No one thought he'd get traded but he did (bad attitude apparently?) and now he just pitched in the playoffs for the first time and did pretty well.

[full circle]

Jason Hammel is a free agent.  

 

When did Gerrit Cole get traded?  

[ettin]

Trying to be as neutral as possible, I think people have lost site of baseball being a game for fun, and are now all about stats and performance. While those are important for the team to compete, they aren't important to be a fan. Weaver may not be an "ace" as some will put it, but he is a great pitcher and a great guy who is a fan favorite simply because of who he is. People love him because he's a local guy who cares more about the game than money. While I hate losing as much as anyone on this board and will vent and moan about the team when they suck, I haven't lost sight of the fact that this is a game for fun. It isn't a business.You need guys you can root for and get behind, and Weaver is one of those guys.

 

Although I agree with the rest of your comments, I don't understand why stats and performance are mutually exclusive from enjoying the game? For me looking at stats simply enhances what I enjoy watching on the field and is, most of the time, a reflection of what I see and enjoy (or don't enjoy!).

 

I just don't want your comment to continue to fuel the fire of stat heads vs. (whatever you want to call the people who don't like stats). They can and do coexist.

[ettin]

Jason Hammel is a free agent.  

 

When did Gerrit Cole get traded?  

 

Yes you are correct. I'm getting my prospects confused. The argument still stands though as 11 pitchers is still very deep.

[Tank]

Yes he's the best WE have. But WE don't have much.

 

this is an irrelevant comparison. is weaver someone you would give the ball to in a big game? i wouldn't hesitate.

[Freezer]

What about Al Bundy. Dude scored four touchdowns for Polk High.

Against Andrew Johnson HS in the city championship game. 4 TD's in a single game with all that pressure? Dude is clutch. Go get him Arte

[Ohtaniland]

this is an irrelevant comparison. is weaver someone you would give the ball to in a big game? i wouldn't hesitate.

 

 

Yes but I wouldn't feel as confident as I would with vintage 2010-2011 Jered Weaver.

[ettin]

this is an irrelevant comparison. is weaver someone you would give the ball to in a big game? i wouldn't hesitate.

 

I have to agree with Tank here. Jered is as good as any pitcher in the game in his ability to mix pitches and keep batters guessing. Sure his stuff has slowed down a bit but when you can throw a 90 mph fastball and then throw a 69 mph curve out of the same arm slot and with the same look coming out of your hand Jered can be like Cartman and say, "Whatever! I do what I want!".

 

Weaver has the heart of a competitor and the skills to back it up. There are others who throw harder and some that have elite velocity but there aren't as many pitchers out there that are as intelligent on the mound, come in with a game plan, and attack each hitter.

[full circle]

Unfortunate for Weave, he hasn't gotten to pitch in a big game since 2009, before he became an elite pitcher.  Angels wasted his best years with bad decisions and bad luck.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

Lobe weaver. Still think he's a very good pitcher.

That said, he's no longer elite. And there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone will age.

I think he'll be fine next year....but the window is getting smaller. This team needs another front end pitcher quick.

We're all crossing fingers on tanaka. I'm just hoping we also have a B and C plan if we don't land him.

[tdawg87]

I'd disagree with the both of you about their pitching depth. They have Chris Tillman, Jason Hammel, Miguel Gonzalez, Bud Norris, Wei-Yen Chen, Kevin Gausman, Zach Britton, and Brian Matusz who are all rotation candidates. Then in the Minors you have Dylan Bundy, Eduardo Rodriguez, Mike Wright, and Steve Johnson as depth. That is 12 potential starting pitchers deep?

 

A lot of those guys have yet to show they are worth anything. Britton has been awful so far in the ML and so has Matusz for the most part. Bud Norris just plain sucks, unless he is facing the Angels. Hammel is a FA and even if they re-sign him, he pretty much sucks as well so it really isn't a great option for them. Gonzalez looks like he's going to be a pretty good pitcher, and Chris Tillman was very good in his first full season. Chen is pretty good, but I'd say he's been pretty disappointing so far considering the hype. If he continues to pitch like he has then he is a solid number 3/good number 4 option but that's it.

 

As for the prospects, Bundy and Rodriguez are legit, but the other two? I know depth is depth but those two guys aren't any more special than what the Angels have for depth.

 

So yes, the Orioles have "depth" but a lot of it is unproven, inconsistent, or just plain shitty. If Tillman struggles this year, and Chen doesn't start improving (and staying healthy) then they are in trouble. Remember, the O's rotation was just as bad if not worse than the Angels' this past year. Some of those guys have a lot of potential for sure, but potential and actual are two completely different words.

 

Now am I saying that I, as am Angels fan, wouldn't take the depth they currently have? Absolutely not. The Angels' pitching is in a much worse situation than Baltimore's. But my, and I think AIR's original point was that they don't have a very good rotation right now and can't afford to lose a great pitching prospect like Bundy who could turn out to be a great pitcher down the road. They have some depth in that organization, but how much of it will help the team win games? It certainly didn't this year.

Edited October 14, 2013 by tdawg87

[tdawg87]

Although I agree with the rest of your comments, I don't understand why stats and performance are mutually exclusive from enjoying the game? For me looking at stats simply enhances what I enjoy watching on the field and is, most of the time, a reflection of what I see and enjoy (or don't enjoy!).

 

I just don't want your comment to continue to fuel the fire of stat heads vs. (whatever you want to call the people who don't like stats). They can and do coexist.

 

I never said they are mutually exclusive. My point was that to some people, they ARE mutually exclusive and can't enjoy a player or the game if the stats aren't up to their standards. Now there will be plenty of times where you don't need to look at a guy's stat line to know he sucks, or to know how great he is.

 

I love stats as much as the next guy, and I am always masturbat...er I mean mulling over Trout's stats for my entertainment. I just don't need them to tell me Weaver is a great pitcher and the "ace" of our pitching staff, or that he is fun to watch.

[AngelsLakersFan]

First of all I love Dylan Bundy.

 

Secondly, Bundy is still recovering from Tommy John Surgery and won't be ready to pitch until about mid season next year, making him a gamble.

 

Third, he is still just a prospect and one that has had a major surgery. His stock price is down right now but before his surgery he was the top pitching prospect in baseball and was noted as having a filthy repetoire of pitches.

 

Finally, Kendrick could net Bundy in my opinion if the Orioles were focusing on making a hard run in 2014. They have some good young pitchers (Gausman, Tillman, Britton, Chen, Matusz, et. al.) and could conceivably part with Dylan.

 

I'd be absolutely fine with this if Dipoto can acquire additional young arms through trade (Trumbo, Aybar, Bourjos, et. al., take your pick) so that the risk of acquiring Bundy is heavily mitigated so that it wouldn't compromise our pitching depth.

 

The type of arm Bundy has is top tier ace and if we can acquire him, so to speak, on the "cheap" by trading Kendrick I would be pretty ecstatic. The TMJ surgery is scary and we certainly have had previous bad experience (Madson) but Bundy would be controlled for a handful of seasons and has tremendous upside.

 

I don't want DiPoto trading for anymore injured pitchers. If the O's are willing to give him up he's probably washed up,