Qualifying Offers

[gotbeer]

Wouldn't Morales likely have still cost a draft pick under the old CBA? Seattle would have just offered him arbitration and either he'd take it and get less than $14mm or decline it and cost his new team a draft pick. How is this different? The old team doesn't get the pick under this system (I think they should) but the effect on the new team is the same.

 

Under the old CBA, it would be based on if you were an type A or B free agent, based on Elias sports rankings.  If I remember correctly, DH and 1B were lumped together, and it was based on the last 2 or 3 years of performance.  Again, going by memory, a type A was like the top 10% and type B was the top 20% or something like that.  

 

So in Kendrys case, I don't think he would have qualified.  

[red321]

They could re-sign Ibanez for half the cost, or find another 1b/DH type for less money. Seems to be an expensive bet to hope they'll get a draft pick, especially since I would be hard pressed to imagine Morales turning that down. Sure, Boras is his agent, right? So it might happen, but I have a feeling they just committed a bunch of money they could have used elsewhere.

 

I still laugh every time I think of Jack Z being named one of the top 5 GMs a few years ago.

[stormngt]

So I was just reading a story about how the Mariners plan to offer Morales a qualifying offer (approximately $14 million) in the off season.

 

This effectively limits Morales from pursuing a longer contract with another team (mainly AL teams because Morales would mainly DH due to defensive concerns) as many GM's would not want to sigh Kendrys if they have to lose their first round draft pick.

 

Either way Morales will make some money but I can't help but feel a little sorry for him as the Mariners have effectively hijacked his ability to enter the free agent market. If he refuses the offer he may not find another contract due to the draft pick loss tied to signing him and if he accepts he has to stay in Seattle (albeit at $14,000,000) for one year.

 

If he performs the Mariners will more than likely do the same thing next year. If he performs poorly his FA stock will fall and he won't get nearly as much out on the open market next off season.

 

We can wax poetic all day about the absurd salaries that MLB players receive but inside their bubble world it really seems that Morales has been boxed into a corner when he is supposed to be hitting free agency where he is supposed to have the freedom to choose which team he wants to go too.

We are supposed to feel sorry for him when someone is willing to pay him 14 million dollars?

[AZMike]

Jeff Fletcher (the Angels OC Register beat writer), doesn't think the Angels will give a qualifying offer to Vargas.

Best bet would be to give Vargas a qualifying offer (to make him less valuable to other teams due to draft compensation being attached) but, simultaneously, try to work out a longer-term deal for lower AAV (Better for 2014 luxury tax)

 

IMO we either need to bite the bullet and pay luxury tax to go hard after pitching, or start to dismantle the team and rebuild. Half measures will just lead to more seasons like this one (mediocre ~.500 baseball).

Edited October 2, 2013 by AZMike

[ettin]

We are supposed to feel sorry for him when someone is willing to pay him 14 million dollars?

 

Again the message and question I was trying to get across is getting buried under the fact that everyone on this board would love to make $14,000,000 dollars.

 

When I first read this story my thought (and perhaps I should have phrased it more carefully in the original post) was "Hey the Qualifying Offer is hindering Morales' ability to enter free agency!".

 

I think everyone can agree here that Morales making $14 million next season would be good for him. The main point I was trying to bring up is that inside the baseball universe, where normal real-life rules don't apply, the player's association has long held that free agency is a goal that every player works hard to get to and is considered a reward of sorts for putting "in the time".

 

The use of the Qualifying Offer by the Mariners has put a stranglehold on Morales because if he refuses it, there will now be draft compensation attached to him and very few teams will want to sign him to a long term contract for higher amounts of money because they will lose their first round pick. This is the difference between Morales making, say, $10 million per year vs., say, $6 million per year if the paying team loses its draft pick.

 

Basically Morales is very likely to lose a lot of long term money if he declines the Qualifying Offer and continues into free agency. Kendrys doesn't win anything with this, he only loses money. Only Seattle wins because they get a draft pick if he signs elsewhere.

 

By extending the Qualifying Offer it does one of two things for Seattle: 1) They get Morales at 1 year/$14 million (which is an overpay by most estimations) OR 2) Seattle extended the offer in order to put pressure on Morales to sign a long term contract with THEM because they know any other team out there probably won't pay more than an AAV of $6 million or so and they can, POTENTIALLY, force Morales to take a 3 year/$24 million deal which would be a little less than he probably could have got on the open free agent market.

 

The point I am trying to make is that Seattle has used the Qualifying Offer in a manner that it was not necessarily intended for which is to put pressure on a player to sign with them at a reduced price.

 

If Morales just plays for 1 year at $14 million yes he is gaining some value. But if he had been able to sign a 3 year/$30 million guaranteed contract, that $30 million is greater than the $14 million and carries more security for Morales. By making the Q.O. Seattle is trying to bring Morales to the negotiating table and sign him at a reduced rate (and it is debatable what Morales is worth I'm just throwing out semi-reasonable numbers) to maybe 3 years/$24 million or maybe even less.

[rageous]

Oh the horror of having to earn your 14 million dollar contract each year.

Give me a break.

If anything all other contracts should be limited to 2 years maximum and the game would be in a much better place.

[ettin]

Oh the horror of having to earn your 14 million dollar contract each year.

Give me a break.

If anything all other contracts should be limited to 2 years maximum and the game would be in a much better place.

 

Sigh people are not hearing me. It is not about the $14 million dollar figure, I don't care a rat's behind about that. I am more concerned that Seattle (and possibly other teams with other players) is using the Q.O. in a manner that it was not intended to be used (as referenced in my other recent post).

 

More importantly I just brought it up as a point of discussion but everyone loves to jump down each others throats around here and act like it is my position vs. your position. Can't we just talk without the damn condescending attitudes?

[gotbeer]

Seattle isn't breaking any rules.  Just like Boras doesn't break any rules by somehow getting teams to overpay for his clients.  Although teams have gotten smarter lately.  Seattle is playing the game at Boras, instead of Boras playing Seattle.  

[Justabitoutside]

 

 Can't we just talk without the damn condescending attitudes?

Been here much?

[Inside Pitch]

DH-only players simply don't get long-term, big-money contract offers. There's only one DH-only player I can think of who can probably get such a deal...David Ortiz. And Morales isn't even close to Ortiz as a hitter.

 

This is a more recent thing..  DHs were right with 1B as the highest paid position players right up until they started testing for PEDs...

[ettin]

Been here much?

 

I think too much to be honest. Perhaps it's time for a real break from it.

[ettin]

Seattle isn't breaking any rules.  Just like Boras doesn't break any rules by somehow getting teams to overpay for his clients.  Although teams have gotten smarter lately.  Seattle is playing the game at Boras, instead of Boras playing Seattle.  

 

I agree they are not breaking the rules as they have been set up I am just saying that I don't think this was the "spirit of the law" so to speak, that is all.

[Inside Pitch]

Sigh people are not hearing me. It is not about the $14 million dollar figure, I don't care a rat's behind about that. I am more concerned that Seattle (and possibly other teams with other players) is using the Q.O. in a manner that it was not intended to be used (as referenced in my other recent post).

 

More importantly I just brought it up as a point of discussion but everyone loves to jump down each others throats around here and act like it is my position vs. your position. Can't we just talk without the damn condescending attitudes?

 

 

Your point was pretty clear I thought....  The people talking about the money are in the money can buy happiness camp I'm guessing.   It would suck to be locked into playing for a bad team or a city you don't care for, but at the same time the players signed off on this current deal..  I'm guessing they were banking on the teams with protected picks taking advantage of the situation and signing players.

 

Kendrys may end up being this year's Kyle Lohse... 

[ettin]

Your point was pretty clear I thought....  The people talking about the money are in the money can buy happiness camp I'm guessing.   It would suck to be locked into playing for a bad team or a city you don't care for, but at the same time the players signed off on this current deal..  I'm guessing they were banking on the teams with protected picks taking advantage of the situation and signing players.

 

Kendrys may end up being this year's Kyle Lohse... 

 

Yes everything you said is absolutely correct. I think the player's association thought that the new Qualifying Offer would work in a similar manner to the old Type A and Type B compensation system and didn't look at how it might possibly be abused and that is their fault in the end (the Player's Association). As another poster pointed out this will almost definitely be revisited in the next CBA discussion, in my opinion.

[HaloFan85]

Before the new CBA, free agents had ALL the leverage during free agency which led to many ridiculous contracts. Qualifying offers just give a little leverage back to teams and help prevent agents for average to slightly above average players from pointing a gun at the GM's head when sitting at the bargaining table. I have zero problem with that.

[AngelsLakersFan]

Sigh people are not hearing me. It is not about the $14 million dollar figure, I don't care a rat's behind about that. I am more concerned that Seattle (and possibly other teams with other players) is using the Q.O. in a manner that it was not intended to be used (as referenced in my other recent post).

 

More importantly I just brought it up as a point of discussion but everyone loves to jump down each others throats around here and act like it is my position vs. your position. Can't we just talk without the damn condescending attitudes?

 

This has been going on for years with players with marginal positive value that the compensation has overrated. Believe Chuck Finley was in this position at the end of his career and was forced into retirement because no one wanted to lose a first round pick to sign a 40 year old for one year.

[Inside Pitch]

This has been going on for years with players with marginal positive value that the compensation has overrated. Believe Chuck Finley was in this position at the end of his career and was forced into retirement because no one wanted to lose a first round pick to sign a 40 year old for one year.

 

Chuckles was forced into retirement because of an ongoing custody fight with his whackjob ex-wife.

[YouthofToday]

Seattle isn't breaking any rules. Just like Boras doesn't break any rules by somehow getting teams to overpay for his clients. Although teams have gotten smarter lately. Seattle is playing the game at Boras, instead of Boras playing Seattle.

Texas didn't overpay for Beltre. Thanks Arte for Wells! That really worked out -- epic owner fail.

Edited October 3, 2013 by YouthofToday

[Vegas Halo Fan]

We can wax poetic all day about the absurd salaries that MLB players receive but inside their bubble world it really seems that Morales has been boxed into a corner when he is supposed to be hitting free agency where he is supposed to have the freedom to choose which team he wants to go too.

 

I would love to be boxed into a $14M corner with my current employer.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Best bet would be to give Vargas a qualifying offer (to make him less valuable to other teams due to draft compensation being attached) but, simultaneously, try to work out a longer-term deal for lower AAV (Better for 2014 luxury tax)

IMO we either need to bite the bullet and pay luxury tax to go hard after pitching, or start to dismantle the team and rebuild. Half measures will just lead to more seasons like this one (mediocre ~.500 baseball).

Agreed. There's no point in keeping any of our decent guys if were just going to put bandaids on and go as is. Trade away a few of these guys, and focus on 2015/6.

Or, bite the bullet and pay the luxery tax.

Personally, I doubt moreno is going to dismantle. I think he'll spend until he gets his ring. I just hope its on the right guys.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Personally, I doubt moreno is going to dismantle. I think he'll spend until he gets his ring. I just hope its on the right guys.

 

This has been the issue, and since so much has been spent on the wrong guys, there is a lot less left to spend on the ones we could truly use. We could have gotten Adrian Beltre for a fraction of what we paid Pujols, filled a position of need that is a lot harder to fill than first base and saved a bunch of cash. We could also have signed Russell Martin for a song when the Dodgers let him go, and fixed our catching problems (except that the Scioscia-Mathis love affair was in full swing at the time). There have been a lot of bad decisions made on which players to acquire and which ones to pass on.

 

I doubt that there is a need for me to rehash the Vernon Wells trade.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Vegas Halo Fan