OF-1B-DH logjam - a solution

[rageous]

I think we are fine in the event that our corner IF or 1B gets hurt. We have way more than enough depth to plug someone in. But that is just another reason for keeping Bourjos. Not the only reason. The other reasons have been mentioned already in this thread.

Dodgers got on a hot streak with Ethier playing majority of the time at centerfield.

I think the Angels would be fine if they played Calhoun at center for a month.

There are lot of more holes that need to be filled rather than worrying about a potential injury.

[Angelsjunky]

So you keep all the players at a spot that the team has surplus then trade howie in a position that they really have no major league quality replacement.

Brilliant.

 

I'm only weighing different options, not making a definitive stand either way. I think you could trade one of Trumbo, Bourjos, or Calhoun, but I was pointing out that there's also a good reason to keep them all.

 

I also disagree with you about Howie. Green is at least an average bat, with potential to be a bit more than that. His defense is wanting but so was Howie's when he came up. From scouting reports I've read, he should be at least league average eventually defensively. But the point is, Green is ready now to be at least a league average second baseman and has the potential to be more - at a fraction of the cost of Kendrick.

 

If Green flops, Lindsey isn't far behind. He's done pretty well at AA and A+ to AA is probably the biggest jump in the minors, bigger than AA to AAA. A couple months in Salt Lake may give him the confidence to at least hold his own in the majors as soon as midseason next year.

[nate]

My only concern with trading Trumbo would be if Pujols isn't able to play 1b every day anymore.  Calhoun can play 1b but I don't think he could play on a regular basis.

[NrM]

People also have to remember that Shuck is all but guaranteed a lot of playing time too. Scioscia loves bad players like him.

[mtangelsfan]

I do not agree with the idea that another starter at the level of Vargas is going to get it done for this team.

 

This team needs a solid number two starter and either re-sign Vargas or get another starter at a number four level.

 

I think that any two of Trumbo/Kendrick/Burjous will get you the number two.

 

My concern is third base where we don't really have offense.  Clearly they don't feel Green is going to be the guy over there and that leaves us with Lucho.  Sorry, but I'm not too thrilled with the idea of an infield of Lucho/Aybar/Green/Pujols

[gotbeer]

You guys are overthinking this.

 

Sign Vargas and Tanaka.  Tanaka is a big question mark, but he might be the best pitcher available out there, and would only require money.  

 

Trade Shuck (a possible ROY) and Cowgill for relievers.  

 

And the team is set for 2014.

[Docwaukee]

I think you need to move an OFer for the biggest pitching return you can get.  I don't think other teams would believe in Cahoun so I don't think he'll have the value of Bourjos or Trumbo.  I'd love to keep them all around and find time for them, but it makes more sense to upgrade pitching then worry about someone getting injured.  BTW, if Trout got injured, this team is hosed anyway. 

 

I am not a Grant Green believer.  He's not nearly the hitter that Howie is.  He has less pop, and I find him pretty weak defensively so far.  Also, his minor league BB rate is only a shade better than Howie's and his K rate is higher.  Which to me means you get a hard look at Lindsey, but I could see them putting Romine or Field there.    Either way, I think there is going to be more of a drop in offense from howie to anyone else than people think.  Howie is much more of an offensive threat than Aybar in my opinion.  Going from Howie to Green is no different to worse than going from Aybar to Romine offensively.  Yet Romine is a tremendous defender. 

I am not saying that Romine doesn't project as more of a util inf, I am just weighing the pros and cons of trading a middle infielder, and frankly, I'd Trade Trumbo or Bourjos first, then Aybar, and then Kendrick. 

 

In terms of OF backups, Shuck is a decent 4th/5th OFer.  I also think Matt Long could be a sleeper - especially if he can play 2b. I know he hasn't gotten the pub of a green or lindsey, but like Calhoun he's done nothing but perform (albeit lesser so). 

[Docwaukee]

I do not agree with the idea that another starter at the level of Vargas is going to get it done for this team.

 

This team needs a solid number two starter and either re-sign Vargas or get another starter at a number four level.

 

I think that any two of Trumbo/Kendrick/Burjous will get you the number two.

 

My concern is third base where we don't really have offense.  Clearly they don't feel Green is going to be the guy over there and that leaves us with Lucho.  Sorry, but I'm not too thrilled with the idea of an infield of Lucho/Aybar/Green/Pujols

Honestly, that's why I'd trade Aybar instead.  Howie is a very good offensive 2bman.  Aybar is a slightly above average SS.  I think the drop off from Howie to Green is more than people think whereas the dropoff from Aybar to Romine or some other stop gap is less than people think. 

[WallyWorld]

Vargas is a good #3. Richards a good #5. Go get another Wilson/Vargas type via FA and you're set

 

Chuck, what happens when guys go down with injury?  Williams is a decent stopgap, but you're still not far from having to put a guy like Enright out there.  Angels don't just need to re-sign Vargas and add 1 more guy - they need at least 2-3 more guys, whether it's through trades or cheaper FAs.

[Glen]

Chuck, what happens when guys go down with injury?  Williams is a decent stopgap, but you're still not far from having to put a guy like Enright out there.  Angels don't just need to re-sign Vargas and add 1 more guy - they need at least 2-3 more guys, whether it's through trades or cheaper FAs.

 

 

So where are these guys gonna come from, and will they be any better than what we have in the minors?  

[gotbeer]

Chuck, what happens when guys go down with injury?  Williams is a decent stopgap, but you're still not far from having to put a guy like Enright out there.  Angels don't just need to re-sign Vargas and add 1 more guy - they need at least 2-3 more guys, whether it's through trades or cheaper FAs.

 

Where will these guys play?  FA's of the type we need to sign will only sign if they get playing time at the MLB level.  You can't start 7 starters, so that we will have 5 when 2 get injured.  And it would be foolish to trade productive MLB players for minor league depth.  

[Angelsjunky]

Aybar may be one of those players, like Garret Anderson was, that is both over- AND under-rated, depending upon who you ask. What you have in him is a player who has, over the last six years of almost full time play, amassed 13.9 fWAR, which averages out to 2.3 fWAR per season. Three of those six seasons have been 3.6 to 3.9, which is a very good player if not a star.  Howie's been about the same, with one season (2011) better than any Aybar's had, but his next best season isn't as good as Aybar's three best.

 

So basically Aybar is a 2-3 fWAR player at a premium position - not a star but not easily replaceable. Just like Kendrick.

 

Doc, I disagree that the fall-off after Aybar is the same as after Kendrick. The main difference is that where with Aybar you have two bench players in Field and Romine, with Kendrick you have Green and Lindsey, two projected regulars. I personally think Field could surprise and be a good "super utility" type, but even then he'll be stretched as a starter. Romine is a very good defensive player but a poor hitter. At best, as a regular, he's 0-1 fWAR. Green, Lindsey, and Yarbrough could all be similar in value to Kendrick: 2+ fWAR players.

[WallyWorld]

Where will these guys play?  FA's of the type we need to sign will only sign if they get playing time at the MLB level.  You can't start 7 starters, so that we will have 5 when 2 get injured.  And it would be foolish to trade productive MLB players for minor league depth.  

 

I would have Richards start the year in AAA as depth, since he still has options.  Then I would make sure one of my trades in the offseason was for either a SP prospect in AAA who is knocking on the door, or a guy like Richards with MLB experience but options left.

[Troll Daddy]

Guys like Trumbo don't grow on trees. He's not a finished product yet. Personally I would like to see him for another season at least.

Pujols has become injury prone. I don't see the Angels trading Trumbo anytime soon.

[nate]

I don't agree with Chuck.  Just because this team has pitched well over the last couple weeks doesn't mean they can sustain the season.  Richards can be a #5 but he could just as easily be awful for half the season again.

 

You need two #3 (or better) level starting pitchers at least.

[Angel Oracle]

Romine is making a play lately, with 6 RBIs and only 2 Ks in his past 8 games, and is hitting just a little under .250. He's always had the low Ks and plate discipline in the minors, and of course the glove.

[WallyWorld]

I don't agree with Chuck.  Just because this team has pitched well over the last couple weeks doesn't mean they can sustain the season.  Richards can be a #5 but he could just as easily be awful for half the season again.

 

You need two #3 (or better) level starting pitchers at least.

 

completely agree with you, Nate.  I like what Richards has done the last month or so, and I think he very well could be a serviceable starter next year, but he's a perfect candidate for being a #6 guy.  Young, potential, still has options.  

[WallyWorld]

Guys like Trumbo don't grow on trees. He's not a finished product yet. Personally I would like to see him for another season at least.

Pujols has become injury prone. I don't see the Angels trading Trumbo anytime soon.

 

Trumbo is 28, he's as finished a product as he's going to be.  I wouldn't be upset if he was traded for the right piece(s), and I wouldn't be upset if he ended up staying, because as you said, guys with 35+ HR potential don't grow on trees.  But keep in mind his days of being a bargain are quickly coming to an end.  Not sure I would be in favor of paying market value for him, given his flaws (very low OBP, bad defense, etc).

[Docwaukee]

Aybar may be one of those players, like Garret Anderson was, that is both over- AND under-rated, depending upon who you ask. What you have in him is a player who has, over the last six years of almost full time play, amassed 13.9 fWAR, which averages out to 2.3 fWAR per season. Three of those six seasons have been 3.6 to 3.9, which is a very good player if not a star.  Howie's been about the same, with one season (2011) better than any Aybar's had, but his next best season isn't as good as Aybar's three best.

 

So basically Aybar is a 2-3 fWAR player at a premium position - not a star but not easily replaceable. Just like Kendrick.

 

Doc, I disagree that the fall-off after Aybar is the same as after Kendrick. The main difference is that where with Aybar you have two bench players in Field and Romine, with Kendrick you have Green and Lindsey, two projected regulars. I personally think Field could surprise and be a good "super utility" type, but even then he'll be stretched as a starter. Romine is a very good defensive player but a poor hitter. At best, as a regular, he's 0-1 fWAR. Green, Lindsey, and Yarbrough could all be similar in value to Kendrick: 2+ fWAR players.

I am not totally disagreeing with you, I am just saying that it's a lot closer than people think.  While I agree that Romine is a replacement level hitter, I think his dWAR would be 1.0-1.5.  Again, I am not advocating Romine as a long term solution and I wouldn't be overly psyched about him coming to the plate 500 times a year, but I am just trying to consider balancing what you would get in return and what you have as a replacement as opposed to just the latter.  He also gets 0.5 wins of credit over 2b for positional adjustments.  Aybar has had a relatively poor offensive season while Kendrick a good one.  Aybar hasn't been all that great defensively and Kendrick about average.   

 

I guess what I am saying is that I'd rather have Kendrick, Romine and a more talented pitcher vs. Aybar, Green or Lindsey, and a less talented pitcher. 

[Tyler]

C - Iannetta - Conger

1B - Pujols

2B - Kendrick - Green

SS - Aybar

3B - Jimenez - Romine

LF - Hamilton - Shuck

CF - Trout

RF - Calhoun

DH - Trumbo

 

SP Weaver

SP Wilson

SP

SP

SP Richards

 

LRP Williams

RP

RP De La Rosa

RP Kohn

SU Burnett

SU Frieri

CL

 

Release - Blanton

Non-tender - Hanson, Jepsen, Gutierrez, Nelson

QO - Vargas

 

4 spots to fill. All pitching.

 

Players available for trade:

 

Peter Bourjos

Randal Grichuk

Alex Yarbrough

CJ Cron

 

Starters who can be replaced with in-house options that wouldn't hurt the team too much:

 

Mark Trumbo

Howie Kendrick

 

Trade Kendrick to the Nationals for Rendon and Storen.

 

Trade Trumbo and Borenstein to the Diamondbacks for Davidson, Owings, and Delgado.

 

Trade Aybar and Bourjos to the Cardinals for Lance Lynn.

 

New 25-man:

 

C -  Iannetta - Conger

1B  - Pujols - Davidson

2B - Green - Rendon

SS - Owings - Romine

3B -  Rendon - Davidson - Jimenez

LF - Hamilton - Shuck

CF - Trout - Calhoun

RF - Calhoun - Hamilton

DH - Davidson - Pujols

 

SP - Weaver

SP - Wilson

SP - Lynn

SP - Richards

SP - Delgado

 

LRP - Williams

RP - Storen

RP - De La Rosa

RP - Kohn

SU - Burnett

SU - Frieri

CL -

 

So one spot to fill left, and that is closer. Try to sign Mujica. If he doesn't want to play for the Angels, see what Madson is looking like in the offseason.