Official 2022-23 Offseason Hot Stove Thread

[Angelsfan1984]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yes and Rendon can be a top 5 third baseman if healthy, Trout will be the MVP if healthy, Walsh will be really good if he returns to 2021 performance.  With Fletcher it’s not just health it’s approach. 

Completely agree, however there’s going to be a new hitting coach. Perhaps his approach improves whereas no amount of coaching can fix rendons vaginal lining. 

[tdawg87]

All of our players could be top 5 players if they played like top 5 players.

[Angelsfan1984]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

All of our players could be top 5 players if they played like top 5 players.

Can’t argue with such concrete logic. 

[Warfarin]

8 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

You have to figure that stassi plays let’s say half the games….strong possibility he plays less. In half those games, how bad is he offensively. I’d honestly pursue someone to make stassi the backup. There’s no depth behind him other than wallach (who isn’t very good) I’d like to have ohoppe spend the year getting seasoned and bringing him up in September. 
 

jusr my opinion obviously, but SS isn’t as devoid of talent as catcher. 

I think you accept a poor hitting catcher if he is strong defensively.  Just making up a random number, but I'd say that around 80-85% of a catcher's value is their defense.  It's why Jeff Mathis lingered around for so many years despite being absolutely dreadful offensively.

Stassi still seemingly grades out well defensively.  And to be fair, while he had a poor offensive year this year, he's usually graded out as above average (in terms of wRC+) offensively, too.  

I agree that our depth is a bit thin, but the caveat to that is O'Hoppe projects as a starting catcher, and he will likely begin the year in AAA, so he's not too far away.  The hope is by the start of 2024, Stassi can become the backup catcher, with O'Hoppe becoming the starting catcher.  And, of course, hopefully Quero continues to develop, too, and we can have an actual solid catching pipeline being created.  So by 2024, we can have a O'Hoppe/Stassi catching tandem, with Quero likely in AA, continuing to develop.

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Completely agree, however there’s going to be a new hitting coach. Perhaps his approach improves whereas no amount of coaching can fix rendons vaginal lining. 

And yet Rendon was better than Fletcher  

[jsnpritchett]

2 hours ago, Warfarin said:

In terms of the SS route, it's probably not particularly possible (via free agency), with that financial limitation, to achieve that much of a return.  The only real way, IMO, would be to swing a trade for a SS.  In that sense, we'd be using some prospect currency, but not actual financial resources.  I think this is the route we ultimately go in.  I don't think there is a worthwhile SS option in the free agency market that we can afford.

 

Not sure that's the correct way to look at it.  Trading for a player (at least one who's worth trading for...) requires both prospect currency AND actual financial resources.  Some of the names being tossed around (Rosario, Anderson, DeJong, etc.) are going to cost $9M+ in salary, plus prospects.  Sure, maybe the Cardinals pay part/most of the $12M+ DeJong is owed, but he's still going to have a multiple million dollar salary--and Rosario and Anderson's teams aren't going to be sending any money in a trade for them.

[Angelsfan1984]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

And yet Rendon was better than Fletcher  

I wouldn’t say he was better. I’d say he sucked slightly less. I wouldn’t say anything rendon did in 2022 was positive. 

[Warfarin]

19 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Not sure that's the correct way to look at it.  Trading for a player (at least one who's worth trading for...) requires both prospect currency AND actual financial resources.  Some of the names being tossed around (Rosario, Anderson, DeJong, etc.) are going to cost $9M+ in salary, plus prospects.  Sure, maybe the Cardinals pay part/most of the $12M+ DeJong is owed, but he's still going to have a multiple million dollar salary--and Rosario and Anderson's teams aren't going to be sending any money in a trade for them.

Oh I agree fully.  There's a reason organizations try to calculate surplus value and have it correlate to actual financial value.  

In our case, though, Moreno likely wants to somewhat reduce actual dollars spent and is probably more amenable to trading some future/surplus value, because what does he really care about future value?

So for example - Adames, if on the open market, would probably command a salary of 25-30mil.  He's not, however, and is likely to earn around 10mil in arbitration.  So they can get a good amount of value for a "low" cost compared to what he'd get on the open market.  To bridge that gap of course, they'd have to toss in players who will have future value, and so on and so forth.

This route is probably more preferable to Moreno than paying market value for a free agent SS and paying that kind of salary.  He could pay Turner 35mil AAV for a 5 fWAR player, or instead pay 9mil for a 3 fWAR player in Rosario, along with the extra "prospect cost."

So I guess my point is, while acquiring that player via trade will cost some financial resources, those resources will be significantly less than if that player was on the open market.  And for Moreno, given he likely wants to spend as little as possible to help upgrade the team, I am guessing the preferred route is to use prospect currency and just pay less actual dollars in the process.

[Pancake Bear]

24 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

I wouldn’t say he was better. I’d say he sucked slightly less. I wouldn’t say anything rendon did in 2022 was positive. 

He had a league average bat and played plus defense. Prorated for a full season he would have been worth 2-3 WAR. That isn't sucking. It just isn't worth $35m. Fletcher,  meanwhile, played well below league average offense. Even with plus defense, that doesn't cut it.

[Angelsfan1984]

14 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

He had a league average bat and played plus defense. Prorated for a full season he would have been worth 2-3 WAR. That isn't sucking. It just isn't worth $35m. Fletcher,  meanwhile, played well below league average offense. Even with plus defense, that doesn't cut it.

The problem is that he didn’t play a full season. He hasn’t since being signed. I don’t care what he does for a 20 game stretch. If he’s soaking up 35m in payroll he needs to be on the field producing or it’s a massive negative. Fletch sucking at 5m hurts far less than rendon not playing for 35.

[angelsnationtalk]

3 hours ago, Trendon said:

I think they explore the SS trade market, but they ultimately go this route.

Trade market makes most sense for them, BUT i'd love to drool on the idea of them getting a relief arm before the winter meetings and they have only one area to focus on for those meetings. 

Would love for Perry to either find a good trade or walk away with one of those top 4 SS guys during the winter meetings and call it an off-season. We could finally have good hope for October ball.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

All of our players could be top 5 players if they played like top 5 players.

I see most of our roster as bottoms.

[tdawg87]

15 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I see most of our roster as bottoms.

Especially Rendon.

[Angels 1961]

On 11/25/2022 at 4:54 PM, Angelsfan1984 said:

I’d rather play rengifo than andrus. No reason to make lateral moves.

That may happen is Minasian cannot find a SS via. I do not see them getting one of top 4 SS in free agency. So much competition plus not wanting to add another long-term deal. 

[Docwaukee]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:54 PM, Angelsfan1984 said:

I’d rather play rengifo than andrus. No reason to make lateral moves.

this is how you end up with Soto, Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade getting a full seasons worth of at bats.  

Two of Walsh, Ward, Urshela, Renfroe, Fletcher, Rengifo, Rendon struggle or get hurt and that's what you get.  

an unwillingness to make lateral move has been a death nail for this team.  

[tdawg87]

4 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

this is how you end up with Soto, Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade getting a full seasons worth of at bats.  

Two of Walsh, Ward, Urshela, Renfroe, Fletcher, Rengifo, Rendon struggle or get hurt and that's what you get.  

an unwillingness to make lateral move has been a death nail for this team.  

I liked what I saw from Soto, granted in very limited at bats. Obviously his .500 BABIP is uh, not sustainable. But I think he can be far more useful than the other guys.

[Warfarin]

5 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

this is how you end up with Soto, Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade getting a full seasons worth of at bats.  

Two of Walsh, Ward, Urshela, Renfroe, Fletcher, Rengifo, Rendon struggle or get hurt and that's what you get.  

an unwillingness to make lateral move has been a death nail for this team.  

Agreed, although Soto does have more promise than those other guys.  I feel pretty confident that Minasian will acquire someone who can play SS.  

Having "acquired SS," Rengifo, and Fletcher as the trio should be solid enough.  One of them will inevitably get hurt, upon which perhaps Soto gets the call and can fill in some games.  If a second guy gets hurt, which is entirely possible, then we'll start to have to dig into some of our questionable depth, but hopefully that either doesn't happen or is a short time frame.

Same thing with 3B/1B - we have a solid backup plan now, but we are still thin there, just as we are perilously thin in the OF.  IMO, Perry needs to at least acquire a middle infielder and another OF depth piece, although I suspect they will view Moniak and Adell as sufficient OF depth.

[Angels 1961]

New additions have been nice, and halos will be improved. SS is still big question mark for this year. Angel's still lack depth in many areas. With new ownership coming in changes will occur. After 2023 Angels could be in same position if not worse next off season. If Ohtani leaves will need to fill 2 positions plus offense help acquired this off season. For last 8 to 10 seasons halos have tried patch work in off season to fix this team. I like trade for Renfroe but that means Benintendi will not be coming here. Many things will have to fall into place for halos to compete for playoff spot in 2023. My fear would be they keep Ohtani miss playoffs and then he walks. Will next off season will we be talking about how Ohtani leaves and Angels get nothing in return. Could this be a chance for halos to add depth for future? Best case for 2023 Angels make a run-in playoffs and retain Ohtani. Players like Neto, O'Hoppe, Adell, Joyce, Bachman, CRod among others become big part of team future.  

[CanadianHalo]

21 hours ago, Stradling said:

Yes and Rendon can be a top 5 third baseman if healthy, Trout will be the MVP if healthy, Walsh will be really good if he returns to 2021 performance.  With Fletcher it’s not just health it’s approach. 

Ah I know you’re very optimistic and what not but long gone are the days of Rendon being a top 5 third baseman even if healthy 

Perry needs to raise the ceiling of this team not just the floor

As it is we’re banking on way too many things needing to go our way. Rendon staying healthy, Fletcher reverting back to his old self, Walsh not sucking… we’ll be lucky to have 1 of those things happen imo

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, CanadianHalo said:

Ah I know you’re very optimistic and what not but long gone are the days of Rendon being a top 5 third baseman even if healthy 

Perry needs to raise the ceiling of this team not just the floor

As it is we’re banking on way too many things needing to go our way. Rendon staying healthy, Fletcher reverting back to his old self, Walsh not sucking… we’ll be lucky to have 1 of those things happen imo

I have more faith in Rendon being an above average offensive player than I do Fletcher. As for Perry raising the ceiling he did that with Anderson, Renfroe and he will get a SS. 

[TempeAngel]

13 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

this is how you end up with Soto, Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade getting a full seasons worth of at bats.  

Two of Walsh, Ward, Urshela, Renfroe, Fletcher, Rengifo, Rendon struggle or get hurt and that's what you get.  

an unwillingness to make lateral move has been a death nail for this team.  

Why do you have Soto on the naughty list?

Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade were all part of the problem last year. They are all 27-31 and journeymen/4 A guys. 

Soto is 22, had a really nice season at AA and was called up on September 17 to get a taste. He was not part of the problem. His Venn diagram does not crossover with those guys.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

Why do you have Soto on the naughty list?

I don't see how he was part of the problem last year like those other guys. I think he can become an ED player.

Because nothing in his minor league numbers suggest his 18 game performance was anything other than a hot streak. He didn’t have above average exit velocity. His contact simply found holes which is fluky. 

[jsnpritchett]

14 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

Why do you have Soto on the naughty list?

I don't see how he was part of the problem last year like those other guys. I think he can become an ED player.

[TempeAngel]

16 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Because nothing in his minor league numbers suggest his 18 game performance was anything other than a hot streak. He didn’t have above average exit velocity. His contact simply found holes which is fluky. 

That is a really dumb answer.

Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade were all part of the problem last year. They are all 27-31 and journeymen/4 A guys. 

Soto is 22, had a really nice season at AA and was called up on September 17 to get a taste. He was not part of the problem. His Venn diagram does not crossover with those guys.

 

[Stradling]

17 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

That is a really dumb answer.

Velazquez, Mayfield, Duffy and Wade were all part of the problem last year. They are all 27-31 and journeymen/4 A guys. 

Soto is 22, had a really nice season at AA and was called up on September 17 to get a taste. He was not part of the problem. His Venn diagram does not crossover with those guys.

 

Hey pal, no one says he’s like those guys, so you are having an argument no one is making.  At the same time no one should assume his results were because he tore the cover off the ball.
Or as you would say smh.