Jump to content
  • Welcome to AngelsWin.com

    AngelsWin.com - THE Internet Home for Angels fans! Unraveling Angels Baseball ... One Thread at a Time.

    Register today to join the most interactive online Angels community on the net!

    Once you're a member you'll see less advertisements. Become a Premium member and you won't see any ads! 

     

IGNORED

Bobby Abreu HOFer?


Stradling

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Adam said:

Because of the election of others guys, he should be in. At least he arguably deserves it based on the frame of reference. Some guys just shouldn't be in. Like Baines. 

I don't want the Baseball HOF to become like Football or Basketball, which seemingly elect anyone who was a multi-time all star/pro bowler.

Yet it already kind of is, mainly due to the Veteran's Committee, but also quite a few dubious choices and a tendency to favor nice guys over pricks. So the problem always becomes, is this guy better than some guys in the Hall? Because of many VC choices--and more recent choices like Baines--the answer is "yes" for a lot of fringe guys like Abreu. 

So it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing. Electing Abreu continues to water down the Hall, yet on the other hand he's more deserving than a bunch of guys already in. So what to do? I don't think there's a good answer.

I know they can't--or at least won't--do this, but I kind of wish they scrapped the whole thing and started over, especially with recent tools like WAR. Or maybe have tiers: the Golden tier (inner circle greats, or roughly 100+ WAR), the Silver tier (garden variety greats, or 80-100 WAR), and the Bronze hall (lesser greats and Hall of Very, Very Good, or 50-80 WAR).

Of course that would make things even more complex...is this guy Gold or Silver, this guy Silver or Bronze? Etc.

As for Gwynn and Abreu, the Hall tends to favor guys with extraordinary single skills over guys who are all around good. Gwynn's hit tool was extraordinary; Abreu was good at everything, but didn't have a specific skill that was truly extraordinary. While Abreu was, in his prime, a better overall player, it is worth. noting that even according to WAR--which loves players like Abreu--Gwynn still created more value over the course of his career, even if only by a small amount. So while I agree with @tdawg87 that Gwynn is somewhat historically overrated, or at least was when he played, it is easy also to under-rate him, because he doesn't have a sexy OBP or SLG.

Edited by Angelsjunky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I just remember abreu at his peak being one of the ultimate fantasy baseball players. (And I never played fantasy ball). But every year it seemed like he was 20 plus home runs, 20 plus steals, 100 rbi, 100 scored or something like that. Super steady.

The Hall of Super Steady Fantasy Baseball Players awaits his induction. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I just remember abreu at his peak being one of the ultimate fantasy baseball players. (And I never played fantasy ball). But every year it seemed like he was 20 plus home runs, 20 plus steals, 100 rbi, 100 scored or something like that. Super steady.

Yep, plus about 100 walks a year.

He's something more than a Hall of the Very Good type, but something less than a surefire Hall of Famer. See my list above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, happybat4 said:

Sure it is. Their based off reputation instead of actual production.

Not really. Players having good seasons are generally rewarded by being named to the AS team.

How many times did Gwynn not deserve to be in the ASG? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you think Gwynn was selected to the ASG based on reputation, you are crazy. These are his stats over the last 7 times he was selected:

.358 BA

 .402/.504/.907

142 OPS+ 

In those 7 seasons, he hit over .350 and had an OBP over .398 five times. 

 

It had absolutely nothing to do with reputation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Lou said:

If you think Gwynn was selected to the ASG based on reputation, you are crazy. These are his stats over the last 7 times he was selected:

.358 BA

 .402/.504/.907

142 OPS+ 

In those 7 seasons, he hit over .350 and had an OBP over .398 five times. 

 

It had absolutely nothing to do with reputation.

Gwynn had 7 seasons that were sub 3 war and was selected as an all-star.

Abreu had 7 seasons with over 3 war in which he wasn't selected for the all-star game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

Gwynn had 7 seasons that were sub 3 war and was selected as an all-star.

Abreu had 7 seasons with over 3 war in which he wasn't selected for the all-star game.

Your comment related Gwynn's selections to the ASG was due to reputation. His career numbers pre-ASG:

.342 BA

.395/.472/.867

 

Your comparison to Jeter fails. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Adam said:

This is probably the best argument against Abreu. It's the Hall of "Fame" not Hall of "Best Statistical Achieving Players"

Meh, All Star Games are a popularity contest. I don't think they should have any impact on whether someone should be in the HoF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I just remember abreu at his peak being one of the ultimate fantasy baseball players. (And I never played fantasy ball). But every year it seemed like he was 20 plus home runs, 20 plus steals, 100 rbi, 100 scored or something like that. Super steady.

I had him on my fantasy team the year he had 40 steals.

Kevin Abstract GIF by BROCKHAMPTON

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lou said:

Your comment related Gwynn's selections to the ASG was due to reputation. His career numbers pre-ASG:

.342 BA

.395/.472/.867

 

Your comparison to Jeter fails. 

Abreu had a 853 career OPS pre all star break.

Gwynn is great and he certainly deserved most of his all star appearances, but he didn't deserve all of them and Abreu certainly deserved more.

People loved batting average back than so he was going no matter what.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

Abreu had a 853 career OPS pre all star break.

Gwynn is great and he certainly deserved most of his all star appearances, but he didn't deserve all of them and Abreu certainly deserved more.

People loved batting average back than so he was going no matter what.

Again, you related Gwynn's selections to Jeters' good gloves as being garnered because of reputation.  It's simply not true. He deserved to go. 

Whether or not Abreu deserved to go to more is another topic. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lou said:

Ok, so tell me the times Gwynn was selected to the ASG because of his popularity.

1999.

He had a 858 OPS at the break and was voted in (also less than a single WAR at the break.)

Abreu didn't make it that year even though at the break he had a 970 OPS (and a 323 average) with 11 stolen bases.

Brian Giles had a 980 OPS at the break and didn't get selected.

Ricky Henderson had a .894 OPS at the break with 24 stolen bases and wasn't selected.

Carl Everett had an .878 OPS with 21 stolen bases at the break and wasn't selected.

Mike Cameron had an 848 OPS and 28 stolen bases at the break and wasn't chosen (plus great defense that year).

Andrew Jones had a 7+ WAR that year and didn't get selected (he had a .840 OPS at the break).

Kevin Young had a 918 OPS at the break (14 SB)

Reggie Sanders had a 985 OPS at the break with 20 stolen bases and wasn't selected.

This is one year, but Gwynn certainly had years where he was an all star and certainly didn't deserve it. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...